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Hate crime vs. hate crime: Accusations fly over Israel-Palestine Barclays fracas

The Brooklyn Paper
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Contested ground: The longstanding hostility between Israelis and Palestinians flared up outside the Barclays Center on Oct. 7.

It’s he-said, she-said, and everybody is saying “hate crime.”

The scuffle that Kings Bay Y director Leonard Petlakh says left him with a broken nose took place at an Oct. 7 exhibition basketball game between the Nets and Maccabi Tel Aviv, an Israeli team.

In the police telling, the confrontation kicked off inside the arena toward the game’s end, when Palestinian-rights protesters unfurled political banners in the stands and someone sitting behind one of them snatched a Palestinian flag away.

The pro-Palestinian activist version is that Nerdeen Kiswani, a Muslim Hunter College student, was holding the folded flag and that Petlakh and his friends snuck up behind her, someone punched her in the stomach, and they wrenched the flag out of her hands. A video of the incident released on Tuesday shows Kiswani standing next to someone who resembles Petlakh’s suspected assailant, Shawn Schraeder, and whose home-made Nets T-shirt matches a police description. The video shows a man snatch the flag and Kiswani say, “He punched me in the stomach.” But no punch is apparent in the video.

Kiswani pointed out that she was wearing a hijab at the time and said that the treatment constitutes a hate crime.

“I was in shock,” she said. “Being the only visibly Muslim woman in the arena with a scarf, apparently warranted assault, harassment, and snatching the flag of my origin from my hand.”

In the video, someone near the videographer calls for an usher, and Kiswani calls for one more loudly.

The footage then shows an usher questioning the man who took the flag.

“It’s theirs?” he asks. “Why you took it, sir?”

“Because I didn’t wanna have a political statement, I told you before,” the man seems to say.

The clip, shot at chest level amid a crowd, ends with the usher saying, “Come with me,” though it is unclear whom he is addressing.

Petlakh touted the video as proof that he was not involved in the flag-snatching and that the supposed assault on Kiswani didn’t happen.

“Needless to say that I was nowhere the flag or near the woman at the time of that flag being snatched/given to the ushers, but don’t let any facts stand on the way,” he wrote in a statement, suggesting that the surge of publicity from the Palestinian side is meant to deflect attention from Schraeder’s Oct. 14 arrest.

Ultimately, security kicked both groups out, and the face-off continued outside, according to police.

That is when cops say Schraeder hauled off and socked Petlakh, breaking his nose and giving him a cut that required eight stitches to close, according to the Y. Officers nabbed Schraeder, an Occupy Wall Street media activist, in Saint Louis, Missouri, where a Twitter account registered in what appears to be his alias and using his image says he was protesting the police killing of black teens. Officers now say the assault was not motivated by anti-Semitism, as Petlakh and Sheepshead Bay pols charged.

Kiswani’s lawyer, who is also representing Schraeder, said that Petlakh and his allies have been trumpeting claims of bias to distract from their role in starting the altercation.

“My client Nerdeen Kiswani, was the true victim, of not only Mr. Petlakh, but also his gang of thugs,” Lamis Deek said. “Mr. Petlakh felt that he could and would get away with claiming he was the victim when he was the aggressor. What he and his friends displayed that night was anti-Muslim, anti-Palestinian hatred against Ms. Kiswani.”

Both Deek and Assemblyman Steven Cymbrowitz (D–Sheepshead Bay) faulted Barclays Center management for not quelling the dispute, but that is about all they agree on.

The Barclays Center’s spokesman, Barry Baum declined to provide its security protocol for handling fights, but said that arena management anticipated “a strong reaction” and beefed up security accordingly. There was nothing wrong with security’s handling of Kiswani’s complaint, he added.

“By no means did security ignore her call for help,” Baum said. “In fact, security intervened immediately by separating the two groups. And the flag was returned to her.”

Cymbrowitz is demanding that District Attorney Ken Thompson bring hate-crime charges against Schraeder, claiming that political slogans by the pro-Palestinian activists amount to hate speech.

“The attack [on Petlakh] took place amid a barrage of anti-Semitic slurs such as ‘You are child murderers,’ and ‘Free Palestine,’ ” Cymrbowitz said in a statement. “As one of our city’s most prominent Jewish leaders, Mr. Petlakh wants the perpetrator who attacked him charged not just for assault but for the anti-Semitic hatred that both precipitated it and accompanied it.”

Amin Husain of the group NYC Solidarity with Palestine said he was at the game and echoed Kiswani’s account. He said that opposing how the nation of Israel treats Palestinians is a far cry from hating Jews, but that the Zionist ideology prevalent in Israel can carry its own form of racism.

“The charge of anti-Semitism is always leveled because we’re critical of the state of Israel and the ethnic cleansing that is happening daily in Palestine,” Husain said. “There is no room for anti-Semitism, but there is also no room for racist Zionism.”

A judge arraigned Schraeder on charges of assault and harassment and released him on Oct. 18 without bail, according to the District Attorney’s Office. Deek declined to comment on whether Schraeder was involved in the altercation or if he was with Kiswani, but said that he plans to plead not guilty. His next court date is set for Jan. 27.

A tweet posted from what appears to be Schrader’s account at 9:24 pm on the night of the spat shows protesters standing in an entrance to the stands holding a banner that reads “Don’t play with apartheid” and calls for boycotting Israeli goods and sanctioning the nation. The account’s last tweet of the night lamented that fans at the game were “more aggressive than security.”

Reach reporter Matthew Perlman at (718) 260–8310. E-mail him at mperlman@cnglocal.com. Follow him on Twitter @matthewjperlman.
In happier times: Leonard Petlakh, executive director of the Kings Bay Y, lights a giant menorah at the Y in this file photo.
Updated 10:17 pm, July 9, 2018: Information added from press conference held by Pro-Palestinian activists, as well as newly released video of the flag-snatching incident. Information and quote added from Barclays Center spokesman Barry Baum.
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Reasonable discourse

Theo from Park Slope says:
If you hate Israel, you hate Jews.

End of story.
Oct. 21, 2014, 3:05 pm
John from Bay Ridge says:
“The charge of anti-Semitism is always leveled because we’re critical of the state of Israel and the ethnic cleansing that is happening daily in Palestine,” Husain said. “There is no room for anti-Semitism, but there is also no room for racist Zionism.”

The question for Husain is this, "is there room for supremacist Islam?"
Oct. 21, 2014, 4:24 pm
Bruce from Bay Ridge says:
Taking the flag was rude and childish. The same could be said for Palestinian protesters demonstrating at an Israeli fundraiser. I'm sure that Israeli protesters would have been thrown out of a CAIR dinner if they decided to buy tickets, attend and protest.

The woman holding the flag was clearly not punched, she's lying about that.

All in all it looks like a bunch of immature people involved in this, along with one thug, who broke someone's nose.
Oct. 21, 2014, 4:31 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
After seeing this video, which I did watch, I say that this pro-Palestinian group not only be charged for a hate crime, but also perjury as well.
Oct. 21, 2014, 4:33 pm
Jay from NYC says:
The guy who took the flag possibly committed petit larcney, which is a misdemeanor, unless the flag is worth more than $1,000 dollars (which seems unlikely, but if it is then it is grand larceny and a felony).
In addition, in the video, he may have also committed a battery, it does not appear that he punched this woman, but he did make unwanted and offensive contact with her for the purpose of committing a crime, at a minimum this is a misdemeanor as well.
So this jackhole should be arrested and charged with such. Arguably, its also a hate crime as well which would be a felony count.
Regardless, You can not take the property of other people, it is a crime. The guy in the video appears to steal the flag and as such, seems to be engaged in criminal activity.
If you want to defend this jackhole's alleged actions, then you are an idiot.
That is all this video shows, and as far as the idiotic claim that these people should be charged with perjury and a hate crime because someone stole their flag is just idiotic.
I am reasonably sure there are probably dozens of other videos out there that will show additionally what happened and more people will get charged as the investigation unwinds the events in question.
No Theo, hating Israel is NOT the same thing as hating Jews, and that is a totally bigoted statement made by you.
Interestingly enough, Barclays may be on the hook for discrimination, if, as it seems to be suggested in this article, that they told people you can't have Palestine Flags but allowed Israeli flags, then that may be a suit against Barclays for illegal discrimination on the basis of national origin in a public accommodation.
While I am sure Tal would love to see Barclays sued, it would probably make his head explode if it is found that Barclays illegally discriminated against people of Palestinian origin.
Oct. 21, 2014, 5:27 pm
Bruce from Bay Ridge says:
Interestingly enough, Barclays may be on the hook for discrimination, if, as it seems to be suggested in this article, that they told people you can't have Palestine Flags but allowed Israeli flags, then that may be a suit against Barclays for illegal discrimination on the basis of national origin in a public accommodation.

No chance of this happening. The event was a fundraiser for Israeli military veterans, and if you read the back of your ticket next time you attend an event at the Garden or the Barc (or any similar arena) you will see that you are present on a conditional license, and that the owners of the arena have broad authority to act to maintain public order. It is not illegal for the Barc to state no Palestinian flags at an Israeli fundraiser, and vice versa.
Oct. 21, 2014, 6:31 pm
jay from nyc says:
Bruce, while that is true to an extent, they don't have discretion to engage in illegal discrimination on the basis of national origin and claiming a "license" gets them around that. If they want to ban ALL flags that is ok, or ALL flags over a certain size, (say as in the Ole Miss case) that is ok, but to say no Palestinian flags allowed in (notice not being flown but allowed in) but Israel flags are ok is clearly discrimination on the basis of national origin. (Sidenote there is a suit filed in Houston right now from a soccer game on these facts. See it at http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/07/03/69261.htm)
A seat license, which by the way is also a contract, does not get you around illegal discrimination, but if you've got NY City case law that says different, then I'd love for you to post it.
Oct. 21, 2014, 9:40 pm
Bruce from Bay Ridge says:
Jay, you are out on a limb on this one.
Oct. 22, 2014, 6:55 am
Jay from Nyc says:
Bruce show me a case that suppots your position, as the ole miss case says ya cant ban one kind of flag but allow other flags.
Oct. 22, 2014, 11:23 am
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
You'd have to show the case law. Would a deli owner have the right to ban certain flags but not others at a neighborhood party inside his own store? Probably. But the Barc is a civic center funded in part by the taxpayer, and explicitly boosted by mayors and borough presidents as a public venue. It may be difficult for the Barc to trump the First Amendment in this arena, even if the place is, technically speaking, privately owned.
Oct. 22, 2014, 12:16 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
The solution to this quandary for future Israeli events in public venues, is to offset the inevitable Palestinian protest with Israeli deflationary tactics. Palestinian and Israeli flags entwined. "Palestine Yes! Hamas No!" That kind of thing.
Oct. 22, 2014, 12:27 pm
Bruce from Bay Ridge says:
Jay and Chooch,

1st Amendment requires government action. Ole Miss is a government entity. The Barc is not. You don't know what you are talking about. I realize that you hope for a certain result, but hope does not substitute for reality.
Oct. 22, 2014, 1:19 pm
Bruce from Bay Ridge says:
And Chooch, the way to prevent this in the future is for people not to act like jerks. Stay out of each others fundraisers and grab other peoples flags or banners.
Oct. 22, 2014, 1:20 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Jay, the video shows clearly that this Palestinian woman wasn't hit despite how much she claims she did, so she is clearly lying about it. However, there is proof that the rabbi was assaulted. Whether or not that will be seen as a hate crime, it's still an assault no matter what, which is a fact. As for saying about hatred against Israel, I won't say that everyone who hates Israel is anti-Semitic, but definitely pro-terrorist considering that they never condemn Hamas for what they do, but rather rush to their defense or ignore their actions. On a side note, I can't understand why the Metropolitan Opera House agreed to have Death of Klinghoffer when it glamorizes the terrorists that killed a crippled Jew on a cruise ship that had nothing do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to begin with. Nevertheless, neither Macabbi Tel Aviv nor Friends of the IDF had anything to do with the Gaza Strip, which shows once again attacking anything with the Israel name on it.
Oct. 22, 2014, 2:59 pm
Stillif from Prospect Heights says:
Tal, who is a rabbi? Leonard Petlakh is not, he is a professor.
Oct. 22, 2014, 4:03 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Maybe Petlakh isn't a rabbi, he's just the director of that Y, but there is evidence he was assaulted, and that isn't a lie unlike Kiswani, who wasn't assaulted at all according to that video.
Oct. 22, 2014, 4:22 pm
jay from nyc says:
Bruce try READING, where did I make a first amendment argument? I did not.
I asked you to show me NYC case law that says its ok for a public accommodation (which barc clearly is) to discriminate on the basis of national origin.
You have not done so, and instead imputed that I am stupid, which is laughable in view of the fact that you can't even prove your own point, so either show me New York City caselaw that supports your view or shut it. Oh, And what bar exam have you passed?
And Tal, as usual you missed the point, the woman's flag was, according to the video anyway (which I will admit vidoe sometimes does not show teh entier story), STOLEN, and by snatching it the way the perp did, constituting the use of force, he might get charged with robbery as a felony, rather than misdemeanor larceny, with a hate crime on top of it. Robbery is defined in NY Penal Law section 160 as forcible stealing. A person forcibly steals property and commits robbery when, in the course of committing a larceny, he uses or threatens the immediate use of physical force upon another person for the purpose of preventing or overcoming resistance to the taking of the property or the retention thereof immediately after the taking or compelling the owner of such property or another person to deliver up the property or to engage in other conduct which aids in the commission of the larceny.
Regardless of whether she was punched or not, it does not change that the video appears to show this guy apparently committing a possible robbery. Even if she was not punched, the possible robbery does not go away magically.
As for the other situation with the guy getting punched in the nose, lets wait and see until we have all the evidence.
I am pretty sure there are additional videos out there that will shed light on what happened there. The guy may have been punched in the nose, but what happened before that? Did he swing first? If so, then its self defense and he got what he had coming, and NOT an assault as you claim, Tal, but we don't know that yet do we Tal? Were you there and a witness Tal? Or as usual, are you are just assuming things that have not been proven, and ignoring things that have been proven?
Oct. 22, 2014, 6:02 pm
Robert from New York says:
Leonard Petlakh (the guy whose nose was broken in front of his kids) had nothing to do with flag snatching... And the perpetrator, Shawn Schraeder, who is seen in the video with the Palestinian woman and arrested for punching Mr.Petlakh should be charged with a hate crime... Flag incident is just irrelevant...
Oct. 22, 2014, 7:18 pm
jay from nyc says:
Robert theft is theft, he should be charged. AS for the guy who got punched were you there and a witness? If not then you really don't know the facts yet and no one does and will not until the investigation is complete.
Oct. 22, 2014, 7:44 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
It's a hate crime, it's definitely not "self defense", and the flag snatching may have been provocative, but it's trivial and won't stand up in court as an excuse for breaking someone's nose. Anyway, this will all wash out in the courts. What's interesting is how freedom of expression is dealt with in a public facility like the Barc. The place is privately owned, so they can control what gets expressed and what doesn't and on what occasions. ... In theory. But in fact, in the case of the Barc, I could see the theory being tested in the 2nd Circuit.
Oct. 22, 2014, 7:44 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Jay, I'm not sure if you are just ignorant to this are just have a certain bias here when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Kiswani was never assaulted as the video linked here shows, while Petlakh was and has the face to prove that. For the most part stealing someone's flag is pretty much a petty theft and a misdemeanor, while actually punching someone in the face and assaulting someone is a major crime hence a felony. As for snatching the flag, we don't who really did it or if they were from the Y at all. What we do know is that someone from that Hamas sympathizer group did punch their director in the face. I feel as punishment, that group should give a donation to that Y in condolences to what happened.
Oct. 22, 2014, 9:08 pm
jay from nyc says:
The flag theft is separate from the nose punch, one does not erase the other Chooch. Theft is theft. It does not justify a punch in the nose on a different person, but the punch does not erase the theft either.
A punch may or may not have occurred in self defense, again, Chooch, Tal, or anyone else posting here, where you there? Did you see the punch and what happened before it? If not, then you are not competent to state what did or did not happen
The police say the punch is not a hate crime, so what do you know that they don't Chooch?
.As for your comments about the barc center Chooch, just because it is privately owned, does not end the inquiry, nor does it change the fact that it is a public accommodation, and as such it is barred by law from discrimination on the basis of national origin.
While I am a proud U.S. citizen, and I do not pretend to understand other people who are U.S. citizens flying the flags of other countries where they do not live, much less stealing those flags or punching people over them, if a place lets one country flag in, then they have to let them all in. Barc could ban all flags and that would be ok and not discriminatory, but when a place like the Barc tells people from one national origin that they are gonna get treated differently from people of other national origins, then how can you say that is anything other than discriminated?
According to the New York State Human Rights Law, section 296 (2) (a) It shall be an unlawful discriminatory practice for any person, being the owner, lessee, proprietor, manager, superintendent, agent or employee of any place of public accommodation, resort or amusement, because of the race, creed, color, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, sex, or disability or marital status of any person, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from or deny to such person any of the accommodations, advantages, facilities or privileges thereof, including the extension of credit, or, directly or indirectly, to publish, circulate, issue, display, post or mail any written or printed communication, notice or advertisement, to the effect that any of the accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any such place shall be refused, withheld from or denied to any person on account of race, creed, color, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, sex, or disability or marital status, or that the patronage or custom thereat of any person of or purporting to be of any particular race, creed, color, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, sex or marital status, or having a disability is unwelcome, objectionable or not acceptable, desired or solicited.
The law seems pretty clear to me, so please explain why you think the barc is exempt from new York State Law.
Oct. 22, 2014, 9:32 pm
jay from nyc says:
No Tal you keep harping on the video not showing the woman getting punched. That is NOT the issue, you keep trying to make it the issue but it is not. There is a video showing what appears to be a robbery, possibly motivated by racial basis. That IS a felony. Look it up Tal. As for not knowing who did it, I am not sure about that, the person's face is able to be seen clearly in the video, you can see other people filing the incident while it occurred, the seats where this guy was can be identified and check to see who purchased them, probably with a credit card, so my guess is the police will be able to figure it out pretty quickly, if they have not already.
The flag theft is a totally separate incident from the punch in the nose which the police investigated and said is NOT a hate crime.
So what do you know Tal that the police don't? Have you talked to the guy who allegedly threw the punch? Have you talked to the alleged victim? Where you there? No? Then isn't it true that you have no actual first hand knowledge of what occurred?
So how can you say that a punch in the nose is a hate crime when the police, who presumably interviewed all involved say its not?
How is it Tal, that you can substitute your judgement from all the way up in pleastville, for that of the police, when you where not there and have not even talked to any of the people involved? You can't, so stop.
Oct. 22, 2014, 9:43 pm
jay from nyc says:
Bruce, NYC does indeed have case law, the fact that you don't know that show who the fool is. Again, what bar exam did you pass?
And no I did NOT rely on the Ole Miss case, which I have already stated, this is not a first amendment issue, how many times will you keep repeating yourself to avoid citing relevant new york city case law, which you don't even realize exists? Ok then how about you cite relevant State case law then, Surely you are aware that exists and that it too does not allow a public accommodation to discriminate on the basis of national origin? If not ,I posted it scroll up.
Bruce, your insults and refusal to answer questions, and your ignorance of the fact that new york city does have case law, which you can find on google, shows what you are about and who is in over their head and who is playing video games in their moms basement.
Oct. 22, 2014, 10:17 pm
Steve from Brooklyn says:
Jay, you're babbling.
Oct. 22, 2014, 11:03 pm
Bruce from Bay Ridge says:
Jay, case law comes from courts. New York City does not have a court system independent of New York State. For that reason there is no NY City case law, and no one, including you, will be citing to any.

Just give up. You have made a fool of yourself.
Oct. 23, 2014, 8:18 am
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
" ... if a place lets one country flag in, then they have to let them all in." [sic]

On public property yes Jay. On private property, the owner is under no obligation to accommodate your free speech. The Barc is private property. The Civil Rights Law you googled is irrelevant here. Civil Rights laws guarantee civil rights, not freedom to wave flags wherever you like. You do not have a "civil right" to hang a Russian flag in my restaurant, for example, just because there's a Greek flag hanging in there. You do have a right, however, to enter my restaurant and sit down and be served regardless of your ethnicity, national origin, or mental disability.
Oct. 23, 2014, 4:19 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
Having said that, even though the Barc is privately owned, it may be possible to test the Barc's ability to trump free speech on that site. Maybe not inside during an event, but on the plaza or in the mall at other times. When public space is corporatized, but effectively functions as public space, can corporations stifle free speech in those public settings? Even if the public helped subsidize the space, and it was sold to the public as a public benefit? That's one for the federal courts. Definitely not one for "New York City case law." Ha.
Oct. 23, 2014, 4:31 pm
jay from nnyc says:
I am a fool eh? New York City does not have its own courts huh? Well loook at this link idiots. http://www.nyc.gov/html/oath/html/about/about.shtml
These NYC courts issue decisions, have reported cases which are all found on Westlaw, Lexus, and McKinneys and on occasion cited by both the the NY state court of appeals and federal courts. There are number of other such tribunals empaneled by nyc, the TLC has its own as well.
So Bruce again, what bar exam have you passed? And again Bruce, since you are totally ignorant of NYC courts, show me NY State law that supports your position. I keep asking and you keep refusing to provide anything. SO who is the fool?
Oct. 23, 2014, 5:06 pm
jay from nyc says:
Chooch, it does not make a wit of difference if the place is privately owned or not, when its a public accommodation you can NOT treat someone differently because of their national origin, it is illegal under federal, state, and city law.
here is the link to the DOJ page that explains it to you http://www.justice.gov/crt/legalinfo/natorigin.php#pa

here is the link to the New York State Division on Human Rights http://www.dhr.ny.gov/mission-statement
Chooch the argument you are tying to put forth is the same argument the Klan and segregationists tried and it was shot down 50 years ago. Please join us in the 21st century.
Simply put Chooch, if you have a restaurant and you let someone in with a Greek flag and then tell a person who tries to walk in with a Cyprus flag they can't come in, then you probably HAVE broken the law and the fact that the restaurant is privately owned is not relevant. Discrimination on the basis of national origin in a public accommodation is illegal, period.
Oct. 23, 2014, 5:28 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
Not true jay. I can absolutely.control what kinds of flags, flyers, funky costumes or shenanigans go on on my private property. In fact, I can throw you out of my store for any of those reasons. What I can't do is deny entrance or services to you based on who you are. What you DO in my store is an entirely different matter, and I have a right to control what people do or say on my private property.

Jay. Civics 101. A newspaper publishes an editorial. Someone writes a rebuttal and sends it to the paper. The paper refuses to print the letter. Is the paper lame? Sure. Has the paper violated the "civil rights" of the letter-writer? Not all, they can publish anything they like. Same thing applies on private property, whether or not the property is accessible to the public.
Oct. 23, 2014, 6:57 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
Consider the fact that there is not a single website in the world that is legally bound not to discriminate against one person over another. Hate speech and slander are another matter. But ISPs and websites are free to delete anything they want from comment threads, for any reason. A government site, on the other hand, at least in the free world, might be legally tested for editing or deleting comments. Which is why government sites almost never have public online forums.
Oct. 23, 2014, 7:28 pm
jay from nyc says:
what does a fictional website have to do with anything here Chooch?
Oct. 23, 2014, 7:54 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
You're confounding freedom of speech and civil rights, jay. There are many conditions where you do not have freedom of speech, and it's legal. There are no conditions under which you can be "legally" deprived of your civil rights. A website can bounce you off a forum, but not him. The Barc can bounce his flag but not yours. It may not be fair, but it's not illegal.
Oct. 23, 2014, 8:58 pm
jay from nyc says:
no chooch you are confusing them, I have not once said this is a free speech issue, its not, its discrimination on the basis of national origin at a public accommodation. One group is allowed to bring its flag, another was not. get it yet? Sheesh.
Furthermore, a website is NOT a public accommodation, and is not covered by the relevant statues. As such your "analogy" is absurd on its face and completely devoid of any basis in law.
Oct. 23, 2014, 9:11 pm
Marc from Portland OR says:
Very interesting debate.
In my view, however, Israel provoked the latest barrage on a relatively helpless Gaza (impotent rockets or not, tunnels or not) by covering up the knowledge that the poor West Bank settler kids were probably dead, then carrying out a huge campaign of harassment against Palestinian people which helped instigate the first rockets. In 2009, a key event was the breaking of a months old ceasefire by Israel, which again provoked Palestinian retaliation that was followed by Cast Lead, in which Israel killed hundreds of Palestinians, including massacre of an entire graduating class of Gaza police, within minutes using US-financed and supplied F-16s.
This is the larger context in which people were protesting this event which, sadly, like the other Maccabee games in this country, functioned as PR events for Israel and were used as PR for its military by 'Friends of the IDF.'
I try not to hate anyone. I'm just a Jew who hates a lot of what Israel does. They are masters of the strategy of provocation.
I hope the key figures in this incident heal from their wounds. I hope that Americans would stop stealing or trashing Palestinian flags because they stir up so much anger and anxiety in some of the people who see them. Can you not imagine the feelings of people of Palestinian background seeing all these Israeli flags waved so proudly?
Oct. 23, 2014, 10:37 pm
Ari Kagan from Brighton Beach says:
There is no question in my mind who committed the hate crime here and who is lying about the whole incident. This woman Nerdeen Kiswani obviously was not hit in the stomach and Leonard Petlakh had eight stitches and a broken nose.

I don't want even to start debating this nonsense apartheid argument about Israel where there are 10 Arab Knesset members! Finally, I agree that hating Israel is equal hating Jews, since Israel is the only Jewish State in the world.
Oct. 24, 2014, 1:03 am
Jay from Nyc says:
yes ari and by the color of law of isreal it must remain a jewish state which makes it inhernstly nonsecular and inherently racist.Not something to be proud of.
Having a problem with inherntly racist laws is NOT the same thing as hating jews or being pro hamas, and your assertion is absurd . Alot of people have a problem with Chinas illegal occupation of tibet but have no problem with chineese people. Its the same thing with jews and Isreal. Furtermore just because one is jewish does not also make them automatically Isreali, and for you to equate them as such is racist. Thats like saying all chatholics are Italian and dont follw the u.s. they follow the pointy hat in rome.
its called being a decent fair minded person who does not think that injustice is worthy of support.
Oct. 24, 2014, 6:08 am
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
"One group is allowed to bring its flag, another was not. get it yet? Sheesh."

That's right, Jay. Because the Barc has a right to say what flags get waved on their private property. They do NOT have a right to bar anyone from the property on the basis of national origin. Get it? One is a civil right that the Barc must oblige by law. The other is a right to free speech that the Barc is not legally bound to accomodate on their private property. The Barc has a legal right to hold rallies for the KKK and the American Nazi Party, and to refuse to allow any messaging by by any other parties ... on their private property. In theory, I mean, they actually have that right.

That said, the Chooch concedes that there "could" be a compulsion to allow free speech at the Barc "if" the Barc is subsidized on the public dime. I'm not shutting the question down. If corporations buy and control large public areas, then can they or should they be allowed to control speech at those sites, and to what extent.
Oct. 24, 2014, 9:27 am
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Marc, Hamas are the ones provoking here, not the other way around. The only reason why more Palestinians are killed compared to Israelis is mainly because Hamas keeps placing them into harm's way, while IDF has placed numerous bomb shelters for the Israelis to show how much they care about them. Hamas are by no means a resistance group, but a terrorist organization that is sworn to launch attacks on innocent civilians. Whenever there is a cease-fire or truce that Hamas agrees to, they just use that as a chance to reload rather than talk peace. BTW, their charter does call for the death of both a Jewish state and all Jews in that matter, and they don't hate. Nevertheless, that exhibition game between Maccabi Tel Aviv and the Nets or even having the charity group Friends of the IDF had absolutely NOTHING to do with what just went on there recently, and the protests made at them both here and in Cleveland are nothing but a bunch of terrorist apologists going up against anything that has the name Israel in front of it. If they really do care about ending the conflict, then they should convince Hamas and even Fatah to end all terrorist attacks rather than act of chief enablers to have them do more. Of course if you were to go to the Gaza Strip and tell Hamas to stop, they will probably kill you. Meanwhile, Silwani did lie about being punched in the stomach as both video and the article imply that it never happened, while Petlakh has the stitches and broken nose to prove that he was punched in the face. As for courthouses, there is no such thing as city or county courts, they are either state or federal, and any courthouse that isn't federal is considered a state court even if it has a city or county name on the building.
Oct. 24, 2014, 3:55 pm
Jay from NYC says:
Chooch you are just flat out wrong, not only can you NOT bar someone from a public accommodation because of their national origin, you also can NOT treat them differently from people of other national origins at a public accommodation either.
You don't seem to get that for some reason, so lets try this. Lets substitute national origin with a different protected class.
Your argument is essentially as long as they let people, in they are not discriminating against anyone.
So lets take your argument and say an establishment that is a public accommodation says sure black people come on in, but I am gonna seat all black people in the basement by the back door near the dumpsters, and if you black people complain, we will kick you out. That is CLEARLY illegal.
You get that, right? Any issue with that? If not, let me know so I can get remedial on you.
The only thing that is changed in teh above hypo from the Barc situation is the protected class, so lets keep playing, say instead of black people, say its Jewish people that have to all sit in the basement by the back door near the dumpster, or say its Mexicans, or say its gays, or say its elderly people, or say its transgender people, or say its military personnel or disabled people. Are you starting to get it yet?
The situation with BARC is no different. By telling one national origin they can bring in their flags, but telling another national origin group they can't bring in their flags, then they have discriminated on the basis of national origin, and its illegal.
Maybe the issue here Chooch is that you do not understand the legal definition of a public accommodation so here is it word for word right from the New York statue. Read it in its entirety and you will see BARC is a public accommodation, next, read the New York Statue which prohibits a public accommodation from treating people differently because of their national origin, which I posted earlier. The statutes make it clear.
I have asked over and over for case law that supports your view, which is clearly contrary to the law. I also asked Bruce, and he has since fled the discussion with tail between legs once it was proved that he does not know what he is talking about.
SO Chooch, put up or shut up, either provide a statute or a case that supports your position, otherwise you are clearly wrong.
The NY statute defining a public accommodation is as follows:
The term "place of public accommodation, resort or amusement" shall include, except as hereinafter specified, all places included in the meaning of such terms as: inns, taverns, road houses, hotels, motels, whether conducted for the entertainment of transient guests or for the accommodation of those seeking health, recreation or rest, or restaurants, or eating houses, or any place where food is sold for consumption on the premises; buffets, saloons, barrooms, or any store, park or enclosure where spirituous or malt liquors are sold; ice cream parlors, confectionaries, soda fountains, and all stores where ice cream, ice and fruit preparations or their derivatives, or where beverages of any kind are retailed for consumption on the premises; wholesale and retail stores and establishments dealing with goods or services of any kind, dispensaries, clinics, hospitals, bath-houses, swimming pools, laundries and all other cleaning establishments, barber shops, beauty parlors, theatres, motion picture houses, airdromes, roof gardens, music halls, race courses, skating rinks, amusement and recreation parks, trailer camps, resort camps, fairs, bowling alleys, golf courses, gymnasiums, shooting galleries, billiard and pool parlors; garages, all public conveyances operated on land or water or in the air, as well as the stations and terminals thereof; travel or tour advisory services, agencies or bureaus; public halls and public elevators of buildings and structures occupied by two or more tenants, or by the owner and one or more tenants. Such term shall not include public libraries, kindergartens, primary and secondary schools, high schools, academies, colleges and universities, extension courses, and all educational institutions under the supervision of the regents of the state of New York; any such public library, kindergarten, primary and secondary school, academy, college, university, professional school, extension course or other education facility, supported in whole or in part by public funds or by contributions solicited from the general public; or any institution, club or place of accommodation which proves that it is in its nature distinctly private. In no event shall an institution, club or place of accommodation be considered in its nature distinctly private if it has more than one hundred members, provides regular meal service and regularly receives payment for dues, fees, use of space, facilities, services, meals or beverages directly or indirectly from or on behalf of a nonmember for the furtherance of trade or business. An institution, club, or place of accommodation which is not deemed distinctly private pursuant to this subdivision may nevertheless apply such selective criteria as it chooses in the use of its facilities, in evaluating applicants for membership and in the conduct of its activities, so long as such selective criteria do not constitute discriminatory practices under this article or any other provision of law. For the purposes of this section, a corporation incorporated under the benevolent orders law or described in the benevolent orders law but formed under any other law of this state or a religious corporation incorporated under the education law or the religious corporations law shall be deemed to be in its nature distinctly private. No institution, club, organization or place of accommodation which sponsors or conducts any amateur athletic contest or sparring exhibition and advertises or bills such contest or exhibition as a New York state championship contest or uses the words "New York state" in its announcements shall be deemed a private exhibition within the meaning of this section.
Oct. 24, 2014, 6:12 pm
Jay from NYC says:
Tal for a minute I was startintg to agree with you and then yo called protestors terrorists. Umm that sounds a lot like a dictator talking, are you channeling Putin? They are clearly NOT terrorists, and one guy throwing a punch, which the police say is not even a hate crime, is clearly not terrorism. For you to equate it as such is really a new low, even for you.
Second, I don't like repeating myself, but I find the level of ignorance displayed here is simply astounding, as such again Tal, you need to take a lesson in civics, New York City indeed does have a separate court system to enforce a number of city laws. I posted the link to one of those court systems earlier, specifically the Administrative Trials and Hearings of New York City. It is where city cases are heard and they have their own rules of practice and they report their cases and are cited by other courts occasionally as precedent.
Now you have made a fool of yourself the same way Bruce did.
Oct. 24, 2014, 6:19 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Jay, I said that the protesters are apologists to terrorists, not terrorists themselves. The reason I say that is because I have never heard them once condemn the actions done by Hamas, but rather ignore them instead or try to dodge it by saying that the IDF does a lot worse as an excuse to not answer that. I suggest you try reading my comment word for word rather than just skimming through it and only taking what you want to hear, which is what makes you the real ignorant one here. Also, I never said that the said group were terrorist, but I won't be surprised if they will be harboring one like Hamas. As for courts, there are ones for city law, but those are held at the state level, and the judge will say state of NY vs the defendant when opening up, not of city of NY unless it's a federal case, which is different. Nevertheless, the pro-Palestinian group did lie about being assaulted when they were the ones actually doing it to someone be it a hate crime or not.
Oct. 24, 2014, 8:06 pm
jay from nyc says:
Tal, first, you are now just engaging in semantics, terrorist or terrorist apologists, either way you imply they are in bed with terrorists, and that is just so not true. It would be like me calling you a nazi apologist because you agree with anti-smoking ordinances which was arguably invented by the Nazi party. In other words its just outrageous
Second Tal, you are completely wrong about the city's courts, they are NOT held at state level, they are independent of state courts and no they dont' say "state of new york" and federal cases are held in federal court, although some city agencies can duel file a claim on behalf of a federal agency which is then tried in a city court.
Again Tal go take a civics lesson and look at the link that I posted before. I don't expect you to know about NYC's courts since you don't live here, but NYC is not the only city with its own courts in the country and from your comments its clear you need to learn a few things about the judicial system so you stop embarrassing yourself.
Oct. 24, 2014, 8:43 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
Wrong again jay. You're talking about segregation, which is a civil rights violation. That's not the same as controlling what kinds of flags or propaganda can be displayed in your establishment. You have a right to say it's Saint Patrick's Day and there will be no flags but Irish flags displayed in your tavern. But you must admit everyone to your tavern and serve them all, Irish or not. Give it up jay.
Oct. 24, 2014, 10:04 pm
Jay from Nyc says:
No see st payrocks day is actually a religious holidau whicj plcaes itvinto a different category, again chooch fing putvup or shutip, give me a statue or cite case,law that says a public accomdation can legally discriminate on the basis if natiional origin. Come on chooch I am calling you a chicken and triple dog daring you, case law ore statute cause that is what controls and unless you have a case or a statute, you are done.
Oct. 24, 2014, 11:07 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
There is plenty of case law that upholds First Amendment rights on private property. And as I've stated several times, it would be interesting to test the Barclay Center in this regard. But this was an Israeli basketball game, and it's likely the courts would say an entertainment complex has the right to control flags and banners during an event. Anyway, it's irrelevant, because the Barc did not trample on anyone's free speech or civil rights. Someone in the crowd yanked a flag out of someone's hand, and then someone broke someone's nose. The flag yanking is trivial, the assault was a hate crime.
Oct. 25, 2014, 12:08 am
jay from nyc says:
again Chooch cite a case or statute, put up or shut up..
Oct. 25, 2014, 12:41 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Jay, please give me pro-Palestinian groups that have actually called out Hamas, otherwise my statement that these groups are sympathetic to terrorists is correct. I'm only saying this because many pro-Palestinian groups have never done that, and there are those have called for Hamas to do more terrorist attacks. Since you are so much into law, here is something about international law. Did you know that it's against the Geneva Convention to place weapons in densely populated areas as well as use your own people as human shields aka placing them into harm's way, which is what Hamas is known for doing? Meanwhile, the right to defend one's self from such attackers as terrorists, which is what Israel, is perfectly legal according to that same convention. On a related note, I can't believe how the Metropolitan Opera House allowed for Death of Klinghoffer to play there when it shows the terrorists who killed that very person is being good guys, which shows how much sympathy is given to those who attack Jews. As for Silwani, if she is lying about being physically attacked, which she wasn't, her group should give a huge donation to that Y as punishment.
Oct. 25, 2014, 2:19 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
Hamas is a rank anti-Semitic fascist organization with no compunctions about sacrificing the lives of children to score PR points against Israel. And a lot of useful idiots in the West have bought the hype.
Oct. 25, 2014, 6:13 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Speaking of killing children, a Hamas operative killed a baby when he was trying to drive his car into a light rail over in Jerusalem, which shows how low they can go, but that's Hamas for you.
Oct. 25, 2014, 6:34 pm
jay from nyc says:
chooch, again show me case law or a statue, put up or shut up,why wont you do it chooch? Maybe because you know you are WRONG????!!!

As for Tal bot, maybe Tal, but when I wake up in the morning I will be normal and you will still be the same fed up barley employed, not married, no hope of a girl friend, broke Honda driving clown you always are.
Tal I know all about the Genvea convention, as I actually served in the military, where its standard to get trained on it, and the U.S actually follows it, you did not, and have not done crap in your life, so please don't pretend to give lectures to those who have done and accomplished, while you only read about it in a book after the fact.
For your info Tal, Israel routinely violates both the Geneva convention, and international law.
Lets talk about Israel using DPCM rounds in populated areas, which is a per se war crime, but you don't even know what a DPCM round is, do you Tal? Cause your such an expert on military matters, right Tal?
There is very little that Israel does that is legal under the Geneva convention or international law, whether it be illegal settlements, torture of prisoners, the fact that is an inherently racist government, engaging in ethnic cleansing, collective punishment, all of which is a direct violation of Geneva convention. Look it up for yourself and see.
Again though Tal, none of that has anything to do with what happened at the BRAC when a jackhole snuck up form behind like a punk COWARD and stole property from a FEMALE, and some other guy got punched in the nose, which at most the police have decided is only a misdemeanor.
Again Tal you have called people Nazis who clearly are not, and you have called people terrorists when they are clearly not, you need to stop.
And Tal you wanna talk about killing of babies, first what the f do you know about death and second the idiot loser amateur part time clowns in the IDF killed a U.S. citizen this weekend who is a minor.
So what is your answer to that, are you calling them out or are you in favor of baby killers? Are you for the U.S. are you on our side or not? Or are you on the side of those who kill U.S. citizens?
Oct. 26, 2014, 12:08 am
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
Jay, there is no civil rights or freedom of speech violation here, other than the fact that someone broke someone's nose. Everyone on this thread knows that. You're the one in a tizzy about it.

Even more ludicrous is throwing around words like "genocide" and "racism" and "ethnic cleansing" when talking about Israel.

Dude, the genocidal racists in the Middle East are Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, ISIS, the Taliban, and Iran. And these are only the guys who OPENLY proclaim their hatred of the Jewish state and their commitment to its destruction.
Oct. 26, 2014, 8:38 am
jay from nyc says:
Chooch, its not a speech issue and I keep saying that and you keep trying to make it about something that its not, its discrimination on the basis of national origin. If there were a speech issue, as you keep trying to frame it, then it would be different, but its not a speech issue.
Maybe BP got it wrong (shocking thought eh?) or did not report it in proper context, but based on what they stated, it seems that people got discriminated against by the BARC on the basis of national origin.
Second just because Hamas, Hezbollah Al Queada and Isis are bad (and they are) does not make Israel good, they are also bad. One bad actor does not cancel the other bad actor, bad is bad.
However the main difference is that the U.S sends Israel billions every year in taxpayer welfare, to support a country that is by law racist.
And make no mistake without billions of U.S. taxpayer money Israel, would disappear in about 5 minutes.
What needs to happen is no more of this two state nonsense, every body gets one vote per person and full rights, end the racist policy of Israel insisting by law it must be a Jewish majority, and make everyone in gaza etc, part of the county with full rights and full citizens.
Otherwise, immediate end to all U.S. aid and fully divest like we did with South Africa. Enough of supporting countries who think its fine to ghettoize an entire race of people.
Again though Chooch, that has nothing to do with what happened in Brooklyn, where we are talking about U.S. law, and the rule of law, not the "I have gun so I am right" mentality of the middle east, which is also China and Chairman Mao's view of how things work, and who are also illegally occupying Tibet and are working on taking over other areas.
Oct. 26, 2014, 12:45 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Jay, seeing how defensive you are towards me, I guess there really are no pro-Palestinian groups that call out Hamas, which does make a lot of them sympathizers to terrorists. BTW, Hamas does take a lot from the Nazis to promote their causes as they wish to continue what their hero Adolf Hitler started. As for settlements claim, the cease-fire and armistice lines aren't international boundaries, plus Israel agreed to a unilateral withdraw from the Gaza Strip back in 2005, but Hamas has attacked them constantly since then. Try living in one of those southern Israeli cities, and you will see why there is a need to stop them when their places are always targeted. Meanwhile, the Israeli military is mostly funded by their own citizens, not by the US Government, plus the taxpayer dollars that go to Israel are to develop products that go back the US. If you're so concerned about countries getting taxpayer dollars, then how about the fact that US gives even more to countries that hate us, which is really just to bribe either the leaders or their government to like us? Getting back to what happened at the Barclays Center, Silwani wasn't assaulted, and there is video evidence disproving that. All she did was scream, curse, and flee with the rest of her group. Although assault is considered a misdemeanor for the most part, it can be seen as a felony if caused by aggravation, which can be looked at here. Again, we don't know who actually snatched the flag from them, but I doubt it was those from that Y that did it. Still, I find those protests to have nothing to do with the issue with what's going on Israel. I guess next these groups will protesting in the parking lot of Citifield when the Mets are doing Israel Day or even Jewish Heritage Day for that matter.
Oct. 26, 2014, 2:52 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
Jay, the Barc has not discriminated against anyone on the basis of national origin. The Barc has asserted it's right to control what flags get waved at what events on its private property. If you want to contest their right to do that, you may do so, in which case it would be a First Amendment case, not a civil rights case.

Also, it is a myth that Israel depends on the US for survival. Yemen perhaps, or even Kuwait. But Israel has a robust and diversified economy. If you want to find US basket cases in the Mideast that have a low return on our investment in those countries, Israel would not make the list. Several other countries would.
Oct. 26, 2014, 4:53 pm
jay from nyc says:
Chooch case law or statue, put up or shut up. Tal am not defensive to you, because you are just factually and morally wrong and I condemn you for it. Try not to get the two confused.
Oct. 26, 2014, 10:50 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
Jay. Case law or statue? A statue of whom? The word is statute. You have used the word "statue" 8 times in this thread, where obviously what you mean is statute. Duh.
Oct. 27, 2014, 11:43 am
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
Statue vs. Statute. Try not to get the two confused.
Oct. 27, 2014, 11:44 am
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Jay, if you can't name any pro-Palestinian groups that call out Hamas, then just say that you can't. That would be a lot more better and understandable not to mention much more adult rather than trying to act the way you do. I wouldn't be surprised if you would defend John Adams with his opera, because you feel that it's being against free speech to stop him when he is showing a soft story from terrorist killing an innocent, crippled, Jewish man on a cruise ship. BTW, assault can be seen as a felony if used out of aggravation, which is a possibility on how it was used on that director of that said Y.
Oct. 27, 2014, 4:03 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
He's gone Tal. He won't be back on this thread. He banged into a statue. Only way for Jay to save face now is to vanish, pretend he didn't see the statue. Ha.
Oct. 27, 2014, 7:16 pm
JAY from NYC says:
yeah yeah Chooch, am a victim of spell check, but you clearly know what I meant, and does not change the facts, so again Chooch cite case law or statute put up or shut up and stop hiding and playing games.
I am still here waiting for you Chooch to put up or shut up. Come on Chooch prove it up, why am I still waiting some five days later? Maybe because you are full of it?
Tal, for starters Mahmoud Abbas disagrees with hamas, see it at http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/world/middleeast/gaza-strip-palestinian-leader-assails-hamas-calling-unity-pact-into-question.html?_r=0
Having said that Tal, how is it that you think any country in a time of war against a different nation is going to be out protesting in the street to remove its own leadership?
Israel would never do that, and nor would any other country. Its laughable that you even make such an "argument."
Furthermore, it is clear that if Palestine ended armed struggle they would not be free, Israel will not let them go, they will not stop occupying more land, they will not lift the illegal block aid, nor will they give Palestine people full citizenship in Israel. SO what are they going to do?
When there were truces and things were quite for several years, Israel did not lift the block aid. The evacuation of settlements only came after the second intifada and the Oslo accords only came after the first intifada and before that Israel turned down the London Agreement. The only thing that has ever bought Israel to the table is violence, and history has shown over and over that people will bear any cost so that their children can one day grow up free.
No don't misunderstand me , I don't like hamas and they are not helping things and if they want to be a military organization then they need to act like it and grow up and engage in legitimate military targets and not just blast off indiscriminate rounds (although its also clear that they don't posses weapons that are actually capable of being directed to targets, all their ordinance is unguided point shoot and have no idea where it will end up, guidance is beyond their current capabilities). and blowing up pizza shops full of kids.
On the other hand Israel is not apologizing for the two thousand some innocent people they killed in the last go round, and they DO have precision guided weaponry, and the U.N said Israel committed war crimes, so really then, who is worse, and does it even really matter? To me it does not, bad acting is bad acting, and its not excusable.
Again the only solution is one state for all of em with full citizenship and equal protection under the law.
But Tal, none of this has anything to do with Brooklyn, you keep trying to make it about other things, but its not.
You keep claiming the guy who got punched in the mouth was a hate crime, the police said its not, you keep saying felony, its not, police are saying at most, its a misdemeanor, and my guess is charges will eventually be dropped.
As for the opera, again, not having anything to do with Brooklyn Tal, why do you have such a problem focusing on the issue?
In any event I can't comment on the opera because I have not seen it, and unless someone wants to give me a free ticket I won't be seeing it as I think Opera is kinda boring and not my thing. Have you seen it Tal, or are you once again speaking from a position of ignorance?
Oct. 28, 2014, 6:17 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
Ya right Jay. A victim of spell check. 8 times. On a matter of statutory law. You're a victim of the New York City school system is what you are Jay. The only civil rights that were violated here were those of the guy who was punched. Assuming it is even pursued as a hate crime. If not, then there is no civil rights cause of action in this matter, any way, any how, and no need to cite case law, and no need to haul out a "statue". Give it up Jay, go back to school.
Oct. 28, 2014, 7:03 pm
jay from nyc says:
again Chooch case law put up or shut . You keep refusing to do so after days and days of running your mouth off, you have nothing Chooch, nothing. The fact that you have nothing proves beyond all doubt to the three people who are still reading this what you are.
Oct. 28, 2014, 8:30 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
Oh it's just case law now, no statue? Well I'm glad I don't have to haul a statue down the street. jay, there is no case here to be made on First Amendment or Civil Rights violations. Unless the assault is prosecuted as a hate crime, which looks unlikely.

Let's look at another trenchant piece of analysis from jay:

"Again the only solution is one state for all of em with full citizenship and equal protection under the law."

Okay, so we dismantle the borders, dismantle the Israeli security apparatus, and allow freedom of movement across the land for everyone. Brilliant idea, jay. The suicide bombings and murders by Palestinians will stop overnight, and Hamas will say, "Thank you for making us Israeli citizens, it's all we ever wanted." Brilliant jay, just brilliant. Why didn't I think of that!
Oct. 29, 2014, 9:11 am
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Just to let you know, assault can be viewed as a felony if it's caused by aggravation by the one doing it. There is a possibility that the member of that pro-Palestinian did punch that director in the face from that. As for the conflict itself, whenever I hear anyone mention Hamas as freedom fighters or a resistance group, I find it very appalling considering that I have family living in Israel who think otherwise, plus most pro-Palestinian groups either support what Hamas does or turns a blind eye to their actions. Jay, if you want Israel to apologize for the Palestinians they just killed, then Hamas should do the same for those they killed as well those they threw into harm's way. How else did those Palestinian bystanders get killed? The answer is the fact that Hamas has a history of using them as human shields or places their weapons and bases in places their own civilians get hit. Why is it that we can never find any moderate Palestinians that will call out terrorism done by Hamas or even Fatah? The answer is because they will be viewed as Israeli collaborators and get killed like the number that just did recently by Hamas. The only reason why the UN continues to pass so many resolutions against Israel is mainly because they majority of their members are third world nations that have a bias against Israel. Fortunately, those resolutions don't have a much of an affect. Perhaps, we should talk this in person with some Sabra Humus and Sodastream. Still, neither the team nor the charity organization had anything to do with what went on in the Gaza Strip last summer.
Oct. 29, 2014, 3:51 pm
jay from nyc says:
Still waiting chooch, now you pretty just have made yourself look like a fraud.
Tal I have already addressed that and you are just repeating the same tired mantra
Oct. 29, 2014, 5:52 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Jay, you just continue to ignore what's really going on with this issue with you're continued anti-Israel bias.
Oct. 29, 2014, 7:20 pm
jay from nyc says:
Tal I understand the reality of situation more clearly than you will ever care to admit.
The reality is Israel is a racist state that is engaged in an unjust cause and no matter what, can never escape that fact.
The reality is that Hamas is wrong in how they pursue justice and seek a remedy.
Israel is not better and more "right" than Hamas or Palestine, and Hamas is not better or more "right" than Israel.
The reality is the only solution is that people need to have the same rights as any and everyone else, with full and equal protection under the law.
Ignore that and the only thing that will happen is more will die. Stop asking me for my tax dollars to support this farce.
Oct. 29, 2014, 9:33 pm
The Chooch from The Bohemian Magic Show says:
And do gays and women, atheists, and non-Muslims have the "the same rights" in Muslim countries as they have in Israel? Far from it. Hamas and Hezbollah are not in pursuit of equal rights. They are in pursuit of the destruction of the Jewish state, by any means possible, and because it is Jewish. Do you really think if Israel dismantled its borders and granted equal rights and freedom of movement to everyone in the region, that the jihad against Israel would stop? Are you that naive?
Oct. 30, 2014, 8:49 am
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Jay, you are just as blind as anyone with an anti-Israel bias is when it comes to what goes on there. First of all, none of the US taxpayer dollars goes to the Israeli military, it goes to Israeli companies to make products to send to the US. I'm surprised that you're not angry about how much the US government gives in foreign aide to countries that really hate us, and that's even more, and most of that is to bribe the governments of those said countries. Next, you say that Israel is a very racist country, but when you compare this to the rest of the region, you will see that it's not that much. As a matter fact, the 20% of their population that isn't Jewish has seats in the Knesset, Israeli Supreme Court, as well as any other jobs that Jews will get. How many Jews get to serve in the Palestinian parliament let alone non-Muslims in the rest of the region in their governments? The answer is none. BTW, most of the other countries in the Mid East in North Africa deny Jews from even coming to them along with both Hamas and Fatah for disallowing Jews from being in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In other words, who is being racist now? Keep in mind that Hamas makes it very clear in their charter that they want all Jews to either be killed or pushed to the sea, and they don't lie about that. Just reading that op-ed on the NY Times shows how some like that writer try to take a few individuals and make them as if they are the whole population when they aren't. I won't argue that there are ultra-orthodox Jews that might be calling for the death of Arabs, but they are really a small part of the population, and most Israelis don't accept or condone what they say. By her logic, I can easily that all Palestinians call for the death of Jews just because of a few, but I know that isn't all true. One day there will be a group of Palestinians that will stand up to terrorists and say that peace is the only solution. If a good number stand up, then I know that Hamas can't kill all of them. Overall, jay, you did commit an assault yourself in which Al Gore refers to as the "Assault on Reason" where you keep believing the myths no matte how false they are, and he did write a whole book on that not too long ago.
Oct. 30, 2014, 3:12 pm
jay from nyc says:
Chooch put up or shut up case law or statute been waiting 9 days now Chooch where is it? what is the hold up chooch? Oh and CHooch, until you past case law or a statute, I will continue to ignore the rest of your drivel, or more simply put, what bar exam did you pass Chooch, and in what military role did you serve that qualifies you as a security expert? In the meantime still waiting Chooch, put up or shut up.
Tal, Isreal is an inherently racist country and your sad attempts at Chinese like relativism will not change that absolute fact, nor will it change the fact that they are war criminals, and that they continue to take more land with illegal settlements.
As for Palestinians standing up and saying we want peace, they already did that and Israel killed the peace process.
The reality is Israel will never allow a free and independent Palestine, and as proof they could have done so decades ago but have not.
Israel is furious that Sweden, SWEDEN of all countries recognized Palestine as a country yesterday. That tells you all you need to know.
Again, there will be no peace until its one country with the same rights and equal protection under law for all.
Why are you against equal rights for all under the law Tal? The fact that you are against equal rights for all speaks more about what you are than I could ever post here.
Oct. 30, 2014, 5:47 pm
JAY from NYC says:
And Tal you are TOTALY worng about U.S. Aid to isreal here is teh U.S. Congressional research service report on U.S. Aid to Isreal,
The Congressional Research Service’s report “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,” written by Jeremy M. Sharp, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs, dated April 11, 2014.

According to this report, the Obama Administration gave $3.1 billion in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) for Israel for the Fiscal Year 2014. In addition, the U.S contributed $504 million to the joint U.S.-Israel Missile Defense Program during FY 2014. If we include that number, American taxpayers give Israel $9.9 million per day.

Over the last 20 years, the U.S. has been slowly phasing out economic aid to Israel and gradually replacing it with increased military aid. In 2007, the Bush Administration and the Israeli government agreed to a 10-year, $30 billion military aid package FY 2009 to FY 2018. In 2012, the U.S. began giving Israel $3.1 billion a year (or an average of $8.5 million a day) and promised to provide that amount every year through FY 2018.

Israel is by far the largest recipient of U.S. foreign military aid. According to the CRS report, the President’s request for Israel for FY 2015 will encompass approximately 55% of total U.S. foreign military financing worldwide. According to the CRS report, "[a]nnual FMF grants to Israel represent 23% to 25% of the overall Israeli defense budget."

Contrary to ordinary U.S. policy, Israel has been and continues to be allowed to use approximately 25% of this military aid to purchase equipment from Israeli manufacturers. According to CRS, “no other recipient of U.S. military assistance has been granted this benefit.” Thanks in part to this indirect U.S. subsidy, Israel’s arms industry has become one of the strongest in the world. “Between 2001 and 2008, it was the 7th largest arms supplier to the world with sales worth a total of 9.9 billion.”

The United States also contributes funds for a joint U.S.-Israeli Missile Defense Program designed to thwart short-range missiles and rockets fired by non-state actors (such as Hamas and Hezbollah) as well as mid- and longer-range ballistic missiles (this refers to Iran and/or Syria's asenals). Arrow II, Arrow III, David's Sling, and Iron Dome refer to different projects under the umbrella of this Missile Defense program. In 2014, the U.S. spent $504 million on this and plans to spend $272.7 million in 2015.

By all accounts the United States has given more money to Israel than to any other country. The Congressional Research Service’s conservative estimate of total cumulative US aid to Israel (not adjusted for inflation) from 1949 through 2014 is $121 billion.
Oct. 30, 2014, 7:12 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Jay, you seem to continue with your assault on reason. Then again, I guess ignorance really does no bliss. Your statement on Israeli being racist and not accepting a nation for the Palestinians is really nothing more than a reflection in the mirror because you reading it all backwards. Like many other Israelis, I do support a Palestinian state, but it does beg this question. Are the Palestinians willing to accept a Jewish state without destroying it? BTW, Israeli PMs have offered numerous chances for peace, but the heads of the Palestinian Authority rejected them. Another thing, Arabs living in Israel itself are NOT Palestinians, they are just Israeli Arabs, and they have the EXACT same right that the Jews have. The Palestinians that are living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip do not pay taxes at all to the Knesset, only the Palestinian Authority can actually tax them. The only reason why Israel doesn't plan to withdraw settlements from the West Bank is because they saw what happened in the Gaza Strip since leaving it in 2005 when Hamas launched series of qassam rockets at them, and they don't want something similar to happen. Just hearing that the Palestinians are willing for peace is another reflection in mirror here as well especially when it was offered to them twice on silver platter by Israeli PMs in both 2000 and 2008 but got rejected both times. Just to let you know, when South Africa had apartheid, minority groups living there were never given the same rights as whites, which was never the case in Israel, and even a politician that visited Israel said it was nothing to similar to what South Africa was through, and he experienced what apartheid was like first hand back in South Africa. BTW, why aren't Jews allowed in much of the rest of the Mid East and North Africa? Better yet, why does Abbas not want any Jews to be living in the Palestinian territories once they are declared official? Who is being racist now? As for your talk about what's going on with the Israeli military and the relation with the US, this is something completely different. What you just mentioned is a contract that they have, and a lot of those said weapons you mentioned do get shipped the US, so they are using US aide to give your country's military good weapons hence outsourcing when they probably have manufacturing companies in their own countries that can make them, but probably charge a lot more, which is why they look to Israel instead. Even if Israel does get a lot of foreign aide from the US, which I still find less compared to what third world nations are getting, I would rather see it going to countries that support us rather than to countries that actually hate us. Overall, believe what you want, because there will always be those that will continue to ride such myths. To quote the famous PT Barnum, "A sucker is born every minute."
Oct. 31, 2014, 3:18 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Just something I want to get off my chest on this issue. When recently surveyed, it was found that most Arabs preferred living in Israel than the rest of the region. Also, many of them had a lot more political freedom than their counterparts living anywhere else in the region. With more Arabs volunteering for the Israeli army, the draft might as well as be extended to include as it's only Jews that are usually drafted only. In other words, they could have left Israel long ago, but they didn't. Again, they have the same jobs that Jews have, so there is no racism.
Oct. 31, 2014, 4:42 pm
Jay from NYC says:
yes Tal a suck er is born every minute and you are proof of that. Again Tal in both your boring and factually incorrect rants you did not answer the question I posed which really is the crux o the matter, why are you against equal rights for everyone?
Nov. 6, 2014, 6 pm
Alex from Hell's Kitchen says:
Go Jay! Go Jay!

Jay from NYC for President!
Aug. 27, 2015, 12:47 am

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