Success’s success! City approves controversial charter’s W’burg bid

The Brooklyn Paper
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A city panel gave a controversial new charter school the go-ahead to open in Williamsburg, but parents and community leaders vowed to do whatever it takes to stop elementary school from coming to their neighborhood this fall.

The Panel for Education Policy voted 7–1 to issue a charter to Success Academy Williamsburg, one of seven primary schools that the fast-growing, politically connected Success Charter Network hopes to manage in Brooklyn next year.

“It’s very exciting,” said Success Charter CEO and former Manhattan Councilwoman Eva Moskowitz. “Parents waited a long time for this. You can just imagine how nerve wracking it is for parents not to know where their child will go to school this fall.”

The vote came three hours after a Manhattan judge heard a lawsuit filed by more than 60 Brooklyn parents seeking to postpone the panel’s meeting and prevent the new school from setting up shop inside a S. Third Street building it would share with the struggling public middle school MS 50.

Charter school opponents argued that the Success Charter Network failed to conduct enough outreach among Spanish-speaking families in Williamsburg and denied the existence of neighborhood opposition to the proposal — a possible violation of state laws.

But the judge ruled that the vote itself would not be irreversible and could proceed, scheduling the next hearing on the lawsuit for April 2.

Critics of the Success Academy Williamsburg say they are not giving up their fight.

“The community must have meaningful input into the process — and no such thing happened,” said Advocates for Justice’s Arthur Schwartz, an attorney for the parents. “By not reaching out, they knew of no opposition. This is the first time we’re seeking to enforce the ‘community outreach’ aspect of the law.”

Moskowitz called the suit “legal harassment” and promised to proceed “full speed ahead” toward hiring principals and teachers for her planned 200-child school in the next three months.

“We followed the procedures and looked at them very carefully,” said Moskowitz, whose high-performing schools have won the backing of Mayor Bloomberg. “It’s unfortunate — you used to use the law to get more options for kids, now you’ve got people using it to stop opportunity and excellence.”

In the hours before the vote, scores of parents, community leaders, and students joined Occupy Wall Street protestors in Fort Greene Park to rail against the proposed charter school, which opponents claim is targeting children of affluent parents in Williamsburg’s Northside rather than English language learners in the neighborhood’s more Latino Southside.

“Outrage is important — we will not tolerate discriminatory practices in our neighborho­od,” said Councilwoman Diana Reyna (D–Williamsbu­rg), who called for an investigation into the marketing and outreach practices of Success.

Updated 5:05 pm, March 2, 2012
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Reasonable discourse

Crawford from South Williamsburg says:
Great news for parents and the community, and too bad for the folks who try and preserve failure and incompetence in certain public schools.
March 2, 2012, 10:21 am
NYCmom from Manhattan says:
Why were there so few votes cast (7-1)? Did the other PEP members abstain? not show up?

This Success steamroller is appalling and has certainly not gotten enough review by over half of the PEP (gotta cram em in before the new administration takes office, I guess).
March 2, 2012, 10:37 am
More Charters says:
Amazing news. WAGPOPS has spent so much time dividing this community, and they accomplished NOTHING.

In fall 2013 wwe will have 2 more charters from COTW. It will be awesome.
March 2, 2012, 10:43 am
ruby from clinton hill says:
Moskowitz's comments make plain how willing she is to distort the truth for political points. Like this: “Parents waited a long time for this. You can just imagine how nerve wracking it is for parents not to know where their child will go to school this fall.” SCN announced the potential Wburg school in December. That's a whole 3.5 months from yesterday. And as of yesterday, absolutely ZERO parents of kids entering public K in 2012 know where their child will go to school this fall. NONE OF THEM. You can apply (to any school, including the SCN schools) but no one, NO ONE has been admitted! To imply that some kind of special injustice was done to the handful of parents actually interested in this SCN school is ludicrous and devious. Especially when there are parents of kids in the closing schools who are facing much greater uncertainty and injustice than the few parents to whom she refers.

@Crawford, it's not exactly "news" that the PEP rubber-stamped the Mayor/Eva's proposal. And nice try to create polarity. Perhaps someone so interested in education would recognize the existence of nuance. But I guess admitting that people can be opposed to the Mayor's and these corporate networks' approaches for legitimate reasons wouldn't work for your political purposes. (signed, mom with no connection to, and no particular affection for, the teachers' unions)

March 2, 2012, 10:46 am
How does it feel to have lost this one? COTW is coming soon!

I can't wait for more emails from Brooke, Stephanie, and of course Katie talking about social injustice, wall street corruption, mac-charters, and of course how democracy is being violated.

As long as Bloomberg is Mayor we are getting a lot more charters and there is nothing you can do about it.
March 2, 2012, 11:26 am
Joey from Clinton Hills says:
Hooray! Choice is good. Crawford said it best (above!) There will be a large demand for this school!
March 2, 2012, 11:28 am
ruby from clinton hill says:
The immaturity at 10:43 and 11:26 is astounding.
March 2, 2012, 11:58 am
it is i from brooklyn says:
There is no inherent reason for charter schools to exist ANYWHERE. They do NOT create choice, in fact they destroy choice in many communities. As a whole, they do not perform better than public schools as a whole. They undermine communities and deplete public schools of their rightful resources, have little or no transparency, and little or no accountability. In short, charter schools are a complete waste of taxpayer money. This is an outrage!
March 2, 2012, 11:59 am
JudahSpechal from BedStuy says:
We can throw as much $$ as we want. Try a million & one models as we want, but short of military & boarding schools. We will continue to be disappointed with our education results until PARENTS r making sure their kids are doing their work.

No where in this push for changes do I hear any discussion of the role of the parent.
March 2, 2012, 12:05 pm
MR from SS says:
Congratulations.... Bloomberg and Corporations win again...Ignorant people cant even see. Funding for Public schools cost the city Millions of Dollars... So lets get rid of them, let Charter schools who offer no-benefits to their employees who discriminate against youth take over.
How will they get rid of them underfund them, not support them and when they fail ship them off. Then replace them with these wonderful charters.
Wake up people, charter schools only succeed because they are set up to... The rich get richer the poor stay poor...
How about I cut your benefits at work, force you to work many hours and only higher you if your willing to work my rigorous demands. Disgusting... Its about the kid right, We'll I hope kids don't want to be teachers...
March 2, 2012, 1:30 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
It must be so nice when you have friends in high places. This just shows how Bloomberg will always put his rich buddies and pet projects first before the public. As for public schools, the evaluation is completely flawed, and should be scrapped immediately. I hope the public school teachers that were found to be bad sue for such skewed results. I am just glad that whoever is running for mayor supports the UFT rather than opposes them.
March 2, 2012, 1:35 pm
WAGPOPS from Williamsburg says:
It wasn't a surprise either to WAGPOPS or anyone familiar with this issue that the mayor-appointed panel agreed with the mayor. It is a delight to us that there were members of the panel who found the lack of democracy in this process distasteful enough that they abstained from voting, They knew that even voting against a majority of mayoral appointees would be meaningless.

This is a long fight to put the community back into the process of the distribution of public funds.

Success Academy is really not a viable choice for the "newcomer" population of Williamsburg and Greenpoint - parents who largely want their schools to be more progressive with less testing. This appeal to the "tony" groups that Eva Moskowitz is banking on will not be successful.
March 2, 2012, 2 pm
WAGPOPS from Williamsburg says:
From the New York Magazine article:

From the New York Magazine:

New students are initiated at “kindergarten boot camp,” where they get drilled for two weeks on how to behave in the “zero noise” corridors (straight lines, mouths shut, arms at one’s sides) and the art of active listening (legs crossed, hands folded, eyes tracking the speaker). Life at Harlem Success, the teacher says, is “very, very structured,” even the twenty-minute recess. Lunches are rushed and hushed, leaving little downtime to build social skills. Many children appear fried by two o’clock, particularly in weeks with heavy testing. “We test constantly, all grades,” the teacher says. During the TerraNova, a mini-SAT bubble test over four consecutive mornings, three students threw up. “I just don’t feel that kids have a chance to be kids,” she laments.

Noguera, too, has reservations about the “punitive” approach at Harlem Success and other high-performing charter networks. He thinks it grooms conformists, and that middle-class parents would find it anathema. “What concerns me are the race/class assumptions built into this,” he says. “If you’re serious about preparing kids to be leaders, you have to realize that leaders have to think for themselves.”
March 2, 2012, 2:17 pm
Hopenchange from Williamsburg says:
God forbid some structure Wagpops. As for Bloomberg and the "corporations" winning, your President and Governor and the Rev Al and every other group that you support in lockstep is FOR charters sans the teachers unions.if you and your progressive friends dont like it, make a CHOICE and send your children elsewhere. I will choose to send mine there if they are accepted. Its not your choice to make for others.
March 2, 2012, 10:47 pm
old time brooklyn from slope says:
Hey - if one fails everyone must fail otherwise no fair!!!! good thing for a charter school - give some kids a shot at getting out of the cesspool public education is in its current form. decenralization and the uft destroyed the schools. i m so lucky to have not gone to a public school until university. the kids dress like clowns and the parents do not step up to the plate and take an interest in their kids education. reading the news over the last few weeks about public school teachers et al another reaon to go charter.

I would like to see some serious followup over the years about teen pregnancy, single mothers (and how did that become a banner of pride), college graduation, income etc re charter school kids vs standard public schools.
March 3, 2012, 9:21 am
Yvette from Williamsburg says:
Not exactly sure what your points are Hopenchange and old time. The schools in Williamsburg and Greenpoint aren't failing at all. Two of them outperform Success Academy by a fairly large margin. We don't really need those schools to address schools that aren't failing.

And old time, it you're expecting charter schools to completely cure every single social ill when no type of school in the history of the world has ever been able to do that.
March 3, 2012, 9:37 am
old time brooklyn from slope says:
Who is talking about curing all social ills - my point is the societal payoff would be nice to chart and most likely postive.
March 3, 2012, 3:59 pm
Yvette from Williamsburg says:
You may be talking about your schools in the slope, but the elementary schools Success Academy is recruiting from aren't failing. Also, we're talking about kindergartners through fifth grade, not high schoolers.
March 3, 2012, 4:37 pm
Billy from B'burg says:
But the charter schools are part of a stacked deck that ends up hurting hundreds of thousands of regular public school students! They get extra money from hedge funds who get massive tax breaks for the investment AND they don't pay rent or maintenance, even if it's sometimes billed! THEN they get co-located into existing schools, stealing resources like SPACE and further handicapping schools that are being deliberately starved by Bloomberg in his attempt to break the teacher's union!

Everybody is a pawn in this stupid power trip by Mayor Napoleon Complex, and he's taking down a generation of kids without a thought. This is privatizing public education, period. If the Charter Schools have some magic formula for success, why not just apply it to all the regular public schools? Because statistics show that on the whole charter schools perform WORSE than regular public schools when the DOE isn't busy cooking the books as they've been doing during this entire disaster of mayoral control.

Up until now it's been impossible to have an honest conversation on this because the DOE has discounted all the evidence, and the Charters have been targeting schools in the poorest areas of NYC, which perform badly for a myriad of reasons related to poverty. Now the Eva Moneybags is targeting other areas, parents making enough money and time to be able to examine this shell game are looking at it, and not liking what they're seeing.

Rise up, people, and take back your schools before Bloomberg & Monsterwitz sacrifice your kids' futures for their ambitions.
March 3, 2012, 4:53 pm
it is i from brooklyn says:
old time brooklyn from slope, Park Slope and district 15 have excellent public schools for the most part. One of the reasons for this was that the community was involved in the improvement and creation of public schools/ new public schools. There is absolutely nothing great about charter schools. If you don't like what's happening in the public schools, you ought to blame Bloomberg, who when he got mayoral control of the public schools, claimed he would be "held accountable." The time has come for Mayor Bloomberg to face the music. Pretty much every educational policy that has emanated from his office has been a disaster for NYC public schools. As long as educational policies are created by non-educators like Bloomberg, Moskowitz, Gates, and Rhee to name a few, our public schools will suffer. The irresponsible approval of charters just pours salt into the wound.
March 3, 2012, 5:53 pm
2002 Before Charters says:
State of the New York City Public Schools 2002

Raymond Domanico
Senior Education Advisor, Industrial Areas Foundations; Metro N.Y.


This report provides a comprehensive overview of the educational performance of the New York City public schools over the past five years. It finds that educational performance has not improved during that period. Among its specific findings are:

Only 70 percent of students complete high school, either by obtaining a diploma (60%) or a GED (10%) within seven years of initial enrollment. Only 50 percent complete high school, either with a diploma (46%) or GED (4%) within four years of initial enrollment. These figures are unchanged from the beginning of the 1990s.
Only 44 percent of black students, and only 39 percent of Hispanic students, complete high school within four years.
While passage rates on the State’s Regents exams have increased since 1995, fewer than 50 percent of City students pass even one of these challenging exams. Only a maximum of 19 percent of City students could have passed five exams last year, based on low passage rates for Biology (16%) and Earth Science (19%). Since students will have to pass five of these exams to graduate from high school by 2005, City high school graduation rates may drop precipitously in the near future.
City elementary and middle school students are also not learning what they need to. Only 41 percent of these students scored at an acceptable level on the citywide reading tests in 2000, while only 34 percent scored at an acceptable level on the citywide math tests.
One in five City elementary and middle school students scored at the lowest level on the reading tests, and nearly one third of these students scored at the lowest level on the citywide math tests.
March 3, 2012, 6:02 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Anyone who believes that charter schools are a success are probably taking something that is bad. I have seen the film Waiting for Superman, and thought that it was a joke. Does Superman really save everyone no matter what or does he happen to be selective in who he saves? The film continues to ride the myths that teachers' unions are greedy, and that they are major drop out factories. In reality, charter schools are very selective, and saying that they will take from the communtiy is completely bogus. If you really want to get in, you either have to know someone there or have the money, otherwise you have to be lucky if you win the lottery, which the chances are very much against you. Meanwhile, public schools can't be selective and have to take everyone, which is the big difference there.
March 3, 2012, 9:39 pm
ty from pps says:
Tal -- You should at least TRY to learn what you're talking about before you spew your crap. Most charter schools in NYC are *not* selective. They are part of the lottery system the same way all schools are... parents submit their preferences, a charter school may be one of them.

The only charters that are "selective" are the ones with specific purposes/themes... in the SAME way the selective schools work in the rest of the public school system.

"you either have to know someone there or have the money" WHAT?!?!?!?!

You're such an idiot.
March 4, 2012, 11:38 am
FYI from NYC says:

Getting in is one thing - there is a genuine and fair lottery amongst it's applicants. Studies have shown that lottery schools attract self-selecting families, in other words, the kinds of parents who are already deeply invested in their kids' education, read to them at home, press for higher education, etc.,

The number of actual lottery applicants is totally inflated to serve Success Academy's marketing purposes, alowing them to say, "5000000000000 applicants for 80 spots!"

So let's dig a little deeper, shall we? What does it take to apply? Filling out a form - online. Or, standing on a sidewalk with a Success Academy paid employee filling out the information for you. Check out all the boxes and BLAMMO! You've applied to ALL the Success Academies (Bronx 1, 2, Bed Stuy 1, 2, Williamsburg, Cobble Hill, Harlem 1,2, 3, 4, and Upper West Side) - and each check mark counts as a distinct application. There's no verification that real people are really applying. I tried. I invented a name, address, and child and applied online. And, when I tried to take BACK my application online, I couldn't. Appallingly inaccurate information about enrollment figures.

Contrast that with applying to a DoE school where you have to walk into that particular school office with all of your paperwork and your child in tow.

THEN there's the matter of what happens if you get accepted. No talk of how many people who get accepted turn down the option to enroll at Success Academy. They don't want you to hear about that. The requirements Success Academy makes on their enrolled families can be too great for single parents and working families - coming in on Saturdays for test prep? Or coming in on Saturdays if you're children are late to school? Scratch that.

Finally, there's the "counseling out" that happens amongst families whose kids won't test well because they're ELLs or SpEd or just not great test takers. Success Academy conceals their attrition data, even going so far as to tell parents on the tour that they NEVER lose students. "Counseled out" families tell a different story.
March 4, 2012, 3:16 pm
old time brooklyn from slope says:
are brooklyn tech, bronx science etc elitist _ very much two tier as the brighter kids go there - most nyc schools are ok at primary level, borderline at best at jhs and a disaster at hs level. i did my student teaching at john jay in slope back in 70s and also at pacific hs. chareters are a life line for many kids ad if some dont get in stop the boo hoo - some are just dumb - the parents blame the boe for everything but the parental involvement and placing the importance of education is sorely lacking. let me let you in on a secret - the teachers and admn pretty much across the bord consder parental input to be a pain in the arse (wife is a teacher and wellll retired) -
March 4, 2012, 4:10 pm
Rat Ta Tatta Ta from Tatatatatatatum says:
"She has appeared on “60 Minutes,” starred in the documentary “American Teacher” — and makes $125,000 at an unusual Washington Heights charter school.

But celebrity teacher Rhena Jasey, 32, scored a low 18 — on a scale of 0 to 100 — in the recently released Department of Education teacher ratings.

Jasey, a 32-year-old Harvard grad, works at The Equity Project, a publicly funded but privately run charter school that has garnered nationwide attention for its huge teacher salaries — $125,000 a year, plus performance bonuses up to $25,000."

"So far, results at the 480-student middle school have fallen short compared to other district schools, with 31 percent of TEP’s fifth-graders passing state tests."
March 4, 2012, 5:52 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
"You're such an idiot"

Ty, that is a hit way below the belt. Irreguardless, I have never called you or anybody here on this sight an idiot even if i may privately think that you and others are. Another form of Hamasing is attacking the person that disagrees with you in a personal fashion rather than focusing on the argument, like Israel does. This prooves that you are all a bunch of undebukable bike zealouts that have a chronic inability to see beyond your narrow childish point of views and instead heap scorn and make personal attacks which in my neighborhood constitute a hit way below the belt. Legally speaking, cyberstaulking is potentially a felony, as was the verdict reached in Pluitsky vs. Allahabarakbar. Let that be a warming. Back to the iisue. You streetsbloggers have no idea how the elections are controlled by the powerful, as you are not nerdy leftists. So any election is moot, b/c deserving parents will just have their ballot scratched.
March 4, 2012, 6:10 pm
ty from pps says:
Undebukable... hmmm?

What do charter schools and your painful ignorance of anything about the topic have to do with bikes and the streetsblog website (which you've admitted to not actually reading)??

Oh, right, we're just like Hamas.

By the way, I'd like you to find a lawyer -- ANY lawyer -- that would go on record saying responding to you stupid, ignorant posts on the internet is "cyberstalking." By the way, don't worry, I won't ever go to your neighborhood... which is NOT IN BROOKLYN.
March 4, 2012, 6:27 pm
To Tal says:
Your post is perhaps the dumbest thing I have ever seen on the internet. You must be a complete idiot, and hopefully you never got married and produced any off-spring since between your dna and stupidity, they would be at a real disadvantage in life.
March 4, 2012, 6:51 pm
patum pum p from um says:
Excuse me, what were we all talking about before? Seems like we got sidetracked. Oh yes, dislocations.
March 4, 2012, 7:04 pm
it is i from brooklyn says:
The bottom line is that our children should not be used as lab rats. Charter schools are unproven and unsustainable. Many charter schools are started, and run by people that have little or no educational experience/credentials. Charters are what happen, when we have educationally ignorant, politicians, billionaires and venture capitalists making decisions that affect our public school communities adversely. It really needs to stop. Our public schools need to remain public. Charter schools are NOT public schools.
March 5, 2012, 9:10 am
Stephanie from Clinton Hill says:
How can this paper or Success Charter School call the school network "high performing"? How do you know that? Success has not even educated a full group of K-5 kids yet. The charter model is untested. It's just the new fad.

But charters take the community out of the phrase community school because kids come from all over the district. Plus enrollment is based on lottery, so you could live right next to the school and not get in. remember that.

Plus if your kid has any issues. Statistics show that Charter schools expel students that don't fit the mold. remember that too.
March 5, 2012, 11:27 am
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
What did I miss after being out in the city yesteady? It was a very long day especially with walking High Line Park and seeing an Israeli group at the High Line Ballroom last night that ended around 11 PM. Whoever made those comments yesterday wasn't me, it was by someone here who likes to insult me, and I know some that are good suspects here that could have done it. Nevertheless, charter schools are a joke. I betcha if they got evaluated the same way as public school teachers they would either be no different or even worse. The only reason they supported it was because they knew they weren't being touched by it. Again, charter schools can be selective on who they let in and can kick out anyone they don't like arbitrairly, while this is not the case for public schools.
March 5, 2012, 3:06 pm
Jerry from Williamsburg says:
The vitriolic opposition to Success Academy, which I suspect is paid for and promoted by the teachers' union, is hell bent on perserving the miserable status quo. Our children deserve options and innovation which the charter school movement will help to bring about. Is it the answer to all of our problem with public education? No, but it is a start. The existing educational system is failing our children.
March 5, 2012, 3:18 pm
FYI from Williamsburg says:
WAGPOPS is made up of parents and none of us are in any unions. We aren't lobbyists either. We're not interested in preserving the status quo. We just have a different understanding than Eva Moskowitz of how schools become successful, and a distinctly personal relationship to the educational landscape of Williamsburg. We do not believe that applying "free market" principles to public education has any merit, and is particularly unnecessary in Williamsburg and Greenpoint.

Here's an example, BOTH PS31 and PS34 do better on their test scores than any of the Success Academies, and that's with much higher percentages of Title 1 kids, Special Ed kids, and English Language Learners.
March 5, 2012, 3:38 pm
FYI from Williamsburg says:
From Alfie Kohn:

Success for All is the literacy program Success Academy uses:

Success for All, designed by Robert Slavin and his colleagues at Johns Hopkins University, “tells schools precisely what to teach and how to teach it – to the point of scripting, nearly minute by minute, every teacher’s activity in every classroom every day of the year. . . . Teachers must use a series of catch phrases and hand signals developed by Success for All. In kindergarten and first grade every piece of classroom material (readers, posters, tapes, videos, lesson plans, books – everything) is provided by the program. . . . Success for All . . . teaches reading primarily through phonics. . . . Students are tested, put into groups based on their skill levels, drilled in reading skills, regrouped, and drilled some more. . . . The [first-grade] teacher stands at the blackboard and says, ‘Okay, let’s get ready for our shared story. Ready, read!’ The students read the first page of the story loudly, in unison. . . . ‘Okay, do your first word,’ she says. The students call out together, ‘Only! O [clap] N [clap] L [clap] Y [clap]. Only!’ . . . ‘If you work right, you’ll earn points for your work team! You clear?’ Twenty voices call out, ‘Yes!’” (Lemann, 1998, pp. 98-99). Keep in mind that this account is offered by a journalist who supports the program, at least for poor children.
March 5, 2012, 4 pm
Stephanie from Clinton Hill says:
I love my community public school. I love that most of the kids walk to school. Everybody knows each other's names. It's a great community and my children are getting a great education. This however comes at a price. The price is full on parent involvement. When the City cuts funding for our art program, parents fund raise for one. When there's no afterschool program, parents create one. This school is not failing me or my children, but it's a commitment. I also get a say in what goes on in the school and the kind of education my children get. Most of these things I love about my community school, I would not get in a corporate charter school. And, this school I love has an 80% poverty rate according to DOE standards. Yeah PS 9!
March 5, 2012, 4:02 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Jerry, it's not that I hate charter schools as a whole, I just hate how they get their way. The first thing they do is look for places where public schools already are and demand that their need for the space outweighs the public schools. Another is getting subsidized despite not serving the public. I wouldn't mind them locating if the owner would actually pay for it rather than put it on the back of the taxpayers, especially if their children aren't even attending it. Again, if they are really better than give the charter school teachers the same evaluation as the public school teachers and we'll see how good they are. Don't forget, they can selectively choose who belongs and who doesn't, while this isn't allowed for public schools at all.
March 5, 2012, 6:07 pm
FYI from Williamsburg says:
Well put, Tal. What's not are the studies that show that charter school "parent contracts" effectively exclude parents who are unwilling or unable to make the parent engagement commitments that the charter schools require for enrollment. DoE schools simply can not do that. It would be against the law.

Aside from the reports of parents whose children have been turned away ("counseled out" post enrollment) from Success Academy specifically (as SpEds and ELLs), evidence shows that as the number of students decline, the test scores increase. Charter schools have lost as many as 50% of their students as they grow without replacing them.
March 5, 2012, 6:26 pm
ty from pps says:
FYI -- "Well put, Tal." ???!?!?

Really? His second-to-last sentence and part of his second sentence are reasonable and legitimate criticisms... the rest is just total crazy talk.

"getting subsidized despite not serving the public" -- WHAT? Who are the kids... getting bused in from Mars?

"if the owner would actually pay for it" -- WHAT?! These aren't private schools. Tal doesn't understand the difference between charter schools and private/parochial schools. The taxpayers are SUPPOSED to pay for it... that's the point of charter schools...

"especially if their children aren't even attending it" -- Everyone pays taxes. Everyone receives benefits or subsidizes others. This is a society! I subsidize the Access-a-Ride, but I don't use it. I subsidize Corona Park in Queens even though I never go there. I pay for the fire department, never used it. Oh, but I benefited from it by my neighborhood not burning down. Just like educated children benefit ALL of us... regardless of if I send a child to school.
March 5, 2012, 8:09 pm
ty from pps says:
Also FYI -- Why do you think it's inappropriate to require certain family involvement in the charter schools? Like you said, enrollment is not obligatory. If that works for the parents, that's a GOOD thing. All parents should be pushed for more involvement in their children's schooling. All parents.

The charter schools don't have these and other requirements just for fun. There is research literature spanning decades showing the importance of parental involvement in student engagement and success.
March 5, 2012, 8:13 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Just looking and comparing the teachers alone says who is caring more about the children. In charter schools, most of the teachers stay for the minium amount of time and leave after completing that. Meanwhile, in public schools, there are teachers who have been teaching there almost for life. Just looking at that shows who is really caring about the children. The reason I don't see charter schools as public schools is because they don't just let anyone in when that's the case for the real public schools. On a side note, if property is publicly owned, then it involves taxpayer dollars whereas anything privately owned doesn't, which is why I am against corporate welfare.
March 5, 2012, 9:02 pm
FYI from Williamsburg says:
ty, I was pointing out that Tal was correct in recognizing a) that privately managed schools edge out public schools in shared buildings and b) that there is a method of selection or culling out of students in "privately managed schools."

There's a difference between encouraging parent involvement and legislating it. If you make parent involvement mandatory, then you must accept the criticism that you are excluding families who are unable to fulfill the requirements. It is against the law for public schools to maintain those practices.
March 5, 2012, 9:08 pm
patum patum from tat tat tat says:
FYI and Tal,

I wouldn't fret over ty. S/he is no one to be criticizing absurdity in anyone else--the most notable thing he is known for here is for defending a serial masturbator in Prospect Park with apoplectic intensity.

Lee Harvey Ty
March 5, 2012, 10:45 pm
ty from pps says:
patum? What? Way to twist something to absurd lengths... If you don't see a difference between "defending a serial masturbator" and saying it's appropriate not to endorse the actions of a city employee with no proper training to engage in those actions.

In other words, patum, don't be a total douchebag.
March 5, 2012, 11:08 pm
ty from pps says:
Tal -- There are 46 NYC high schools that have entrance criteria including testing, auditions, etc. etc. Stuyvesant had a 3.8% acceptance rate last round.

Are these public high schools? Hmmm?
March 5, 2012, 11:16 pm
ty from pps says:
By the way, that's 32% of the high schools in the city.
March 5, 2012, 11:17 pm
patatatata from papapa says:

Twist something? Maybe you were twisting something--cough. Maybe we should copy that link to demonstrate the uncharacteristic intensity you attacked that issue the way a dog attacks an Anthony Weiner. Here you are making personal attacks on Tal, as though we've forgotten those 50-comments plus defending serial masturbation in the park with biblical passion. 2, 3 multi-paragraph responses to each comment, passionate, pretending it was all about job training though job training never seemed to get your goat, ahem, before--then suddenly a whole cascade of fury that someone would prevent masturbation in the park until they got full job training.

Hmmmmm. You're no one to criticize anybody--go back to masturbating about masturbation.
March 6, 2012, 7:44 am
Snare Snare from High Hat says:
TY is "thank you" for busting the nut.

My Zipper is Cold Opening in the Park This Morning
March 6, 2012, 7:49 am
FYI from Williamsburg says:

What the DoE and Race to the Top (NCLB squared) is doing with increasing privately run charter schools is upping the ante by increasing the selectivity down to elementary schools, and then punishing the DoE schools that accept all of the children in their catchment area for not being able to operate by the same rules. We expect selectivity in G&T programs, although there is valid criticism that the entrance doesn't really measure much beyond economic background.

If you read the recent NYTimes article about selectivity in high schools, you'll note that they are doing an atrocious job of enrolling diverse populations.

We should not have cherry picking in general education schools, including general education elementary schools.

The end result of this "free market" approach to public schools will be New Orleans where 75% of the schools are privately managed and where the cherry picking of children has left ELLs and SpEds with nowhere to go, and where parents can no longer attend a neighborhood school, because there aren't any.

The data is on the side of improving public schools, not "free markets." But, unfortunately, the money and the power is on the side of privately managed charter schools.
March 6, 2012, 9:40 am
ty from pps says:
FYI - totally legitimate criticism. I actually don't disagree with you. This is a major concern. ELLs are an extremely difficult population given the current way English proficiency is treated in the NYC schools and by the State of NY. What is it, a 2 year window in which ELL students have to magically become proficient... even though most experts believe it requires more like 7 years of immersion to be at the same level. I can't think that charters have or will improve that much at all... it's bad policy in all schools (coming from the state and city legislatures) that are causing problems there.

My comments above were directed toward Tal. He seems ignorant of anything to do with reality. He seems to think selective admission is something completely foreign and means the schools aren't public any longer... and that you need to pay/bribe someone to get in... and that charter schools are the same as fully private/parochial schools.
March 6, 2012, 1:57 pm
Tal Barzilai from Pleasantville, NY says:
Ty, if charter schools were really public, then they wouldn't be selective on who they allow in or on who to keep. Again, public schools cannot do this or the parents will sue if that's ever done. BTW, charter school owners such as Moskowitz herself are collecting profits off of this. Real public schools do NOT have anyone getting profits off of building them. Overall, I wouldn't mind if a charter school locates in a more vacant location and pays full the price for their property rather than taking were public schools stand and use taxpayer dollars when they are hardly public. How about those charter school teachers get evaluated by the very same system they pushed for on the public schools? Let's see how they come out, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were no better or worse, but they will probably claim that there is a margin of error.
March 6, 2012, 5:46 pm
ty from pps says:
Tal -- You are a truly amazing dimwit. You just ignore the facts and move on with the same crap.

The 46 NYC high schools that have entrance criteria including testing, auditions, etc. etc. are not "real public schools"??? Not really public... hmm? Stuyvesant is not a public high school? Hmmm?

By the way -- only 12% of charter schools in NYC are managed by for-profit organizations. They also receive less per-pupil funding compared to the regular public schools.

All charter schools are PUBLIC SCHOOLS -- they simply operate under an independent charter (thus the name) instead of operating under the DoE.

How about trying some actual facts?? Then your legitimate criticisms would be a lot more meaningful.
March 6, 2012, 6:23 pm
it is i from brooklyn says:
ty, charter schools are NOT public schools. Charters may receive public tax dollars, but they are not legally entitled to call themselves a public school. Your 12% figure of for-profit organizations fails to take into account the handsome profits (salaries) of every Tom , Dick and Eva charter school CEO/founder and the more covert ways, our tax dollars end up in eduentrepreneurs hands. There is very little transparency/oversight as pertaining to the use and outcome of tax monies as pertains to charter schools.
March 7, 2012, 1:58 pm

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