Today’s news:

Report: Prospect Park West bike lane is working

for The Brooklyn Paper

Drivers are much more likely to adhere to posted speed limits on Prospect Park West, thanks to the controversial bike lane that reduced the roadway to two lanes from three, a new study has found.

Park Slope Neighbors — which supported the construction of the bike lane between Grand Army Plaza and Bartel Pritchard Circle on the grounds that it would reduce Prospect Park West’s speedway-like conditions — said that its readings reveal a five-fold increase in adherence to the speed limit and a 95-percent reduction in drivers traveling above 40 miles per hour.

“Going from three lanes to two has had a surprising effect,” said Eric McClure, who took readings near Garfield Place both before and after the bike lane was installed. “New York is not an easy place to cycle. With lanes like this being put in place, it’s getting easier.”

Not everyone was heralding the group’s findings. Indeed, Borough President Markowitz questioned the validity of the Park Slope Neighbors report.

“This group is not impartial; in fact, it has supported the installation of the bike lane since day one without regard for anyone who would be adversely affected,” said Markowitz, whose initial opposition to the bike lane last year led to a substantial delay in its implementation.

Markowitz said the “traffic-calming” plan has done no such thing for drivers.

“Double-parking is still commonplace and the result is more noise from car-honking, more pollution from traffic jams and more frustration to residents and visitors alike,” Markowitz said.

Cyclists, though, believe that the report validates what they’ve been saying since the lane was finished last month: it is working.

“The lane is much safer for the cyclists,” said Omar Baltadano, who uses it every morning.

The rhetoric about the bike lane has certainly been heated, but it is unclear which group is in the majority. One indication, however, is the online world, where the anti-bike lane Facebook group, “Neighbors for Better Bike Lanes,” has 320 members, while its counterpart in favor of the lane has 1,500 members.

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Reader Feedback

Eddie Mazz from Bay Ridge says:
I got my first look at the entire bike path before the Sonic Youth show. My first thoughts, Nice, well thought out, visible. I wish this was on 4th avenue from 100 street to Atlantic yards... Brooklyn Needs more bike lanes like this!
Aug. 3, 2010, 2:15 am
Eric McClure from Park Slope says:
Mr. Markowitz is correct in saying that Park Slope Neighbors has supported the redesign of Prospect Park West "since day one," because we were confident that the removal of a travel lane would reduce speeds and make the street appreciably safer. As for our supporting it "without regard for anyone who would be adversely affected," since the only group adversely affected is speed-limit-defying drivers, he's right about that, too. Beyond that, however, he's well off the mark.

Park Slope Neighbors' numbers are based on cold, hard fact, and we're confident that the Department of Transportation's speed data will closely mirror ours. Mr. Markowitz and other opponents of the Prospect Park West traffic-calming project, on the other hand, continue to fall back on alarmist tales of traffic jams, honking and pollution, with out putting forth any evidence of these alleged "problems."

In the People's Republic of Park Slope, of all places, it's high time that we all come to terms with the fact that the redesign of Prospect Park West has made it a calmer, safer, greener street.
Aug. 3, 2010, 7:44 am
Gary from Park Slope says:
As a resident of PPW, Park Slope Neighbors numbers bear out my observations. Cars are much more likely to travel at appropriate speed since the traffic calming lane reduction and adverse traffic conditions are few and far between. At the same time, bicycling and walking on PPW is vastly improved. Sure it feels a little more crowded when driving down PPW, but that was the point--to slow drivers down by making it feel less like a highway.
Aug. 3, 2010, 9:18 am
Sam from Park Slope says:
"The rhetoric about the bike lane has certainly been heated, but it is unclear which group is in the majority. "

Here's a clue. Do you know how many people commute by bicycle in NY City?

20%? 10%? 5%?

Nope.

A little more than *half* of *one* percent according to the US Census Bureau. Concentrating a small minority on Facebook makes it look a lot bigger than it actually is.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/STTable?_bm=y&-context=st&-qr_name=ACS_2008_1YR_G00_S0801&-ds_name=ACS_2008_1YR_G00_&-CONTEXT=st&-tree_id=308&-redoLog=false&-geo_id=16000US3651000&-format=&-_lang=en
Aug. 3, 2010, 9:31 am
paco from cobble hill says:
more car-honking!? seriously marty? fewer constituents of yours will be RUN OVER and KNOCKED DOWN by speeding cars and you're angry that impatient drivers are sitting on their horns? why not tell the cops to enforce 'no-honking' rules, then? you said if the studies proved you wrong, you'd be the first to admit PPW was a good idea after all. Now you've shown the truth... you're not willing to change position no matter what.
Aug. 3, 2010, 9:31 am
K from Park Slope says:
This sanctimony surrounding bike-riding in New York City is really getting difficult to stomach. Despite the fact that New Yorkers love to hate the MTA, the City has the best public transportation system in the United States. Bike-riding and bike lanes everywhere are for cities like Portland, Cincinnati etc, i.e. cities for suburban white people. The fact is that this bike lane was run roughshod through without concern for the people who live in the neighborhood and, specifically, people who live on or just off PPW. It is amazing that it happened in Park Slope, one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in Brooklyn, with the public opposition of the wife of a US Senator who lives on the street. There are other and better ways to slow down traffic; this lane is unnecessary and dangerous for drivers and pedestrians. Bicyclists very rarely obey streetlights and street signs, still ride in the street and on sidewalks along PPW, and ignore the right of way of pedestrians. Those blinking yellow lights that run all day and all night are unsightly but are also a distraction to drivers. Signage and that ugly green strip running the length off PPW have ruined what was an otherwise attractive thoroughfare. Olmsted and Vaux are spinning in their graves.
Aug. 3, 2010, 9:52 am
MRB from Ft Greene says:
Sam from Park Slope,
How many Park Slopers commute by car? I'd reckon that the number of bicycle vs. car commuters in your neighborhood is in the same ballpark.

Additionally, can anyone document an actual reduction in service level for drivers? Overall traffic speed may be slower, but if that's done simply by reducing the number of people violating the speed limit in the first place, drivers don't have a leg to stand on here.
Aug. 3, 2010, 10:11 am
K from Park Slope says:
It's not a bike v. car, either/or situation. This is the way bike nuts and car nuts like to posit their arguments. I'm for neither biking nor driving. When it comes to this issue, my only concern is what's best for this specific neighborhood. This lane achieves nothing for the people who live in the immediate area - no matter how you slice it, whether you're pro-car, anti-bike, whether you consider yourself green, whether you have a tattoo, whether you drive an SUV. The clock is ticking on the first pedestrian to be creamed in that bike lane.
Aug. 3, 2010, 10:31 am
MRB from Ft Greene says:
K from Park Slope...

Yes, eventually someone will be struck by a bike. They may be injured, and perhaps even badly - broken bones or worse. However, they are very unlikely to be killed.

Previously, this was a car lane, and a car lane in which speeding was commonplace. When those vehicles eventually hit a pedestrian, the chances of that ped being killed are exponentially higher. So if we're replacing auto collisions with bicycle collisions, then we're making out ahead.
Aug. 3, 2010, 10:37 am
Mike says:
"this bike lane was run roughshod through without concern for the people who live in the neighborhood"

Get your facts straight. This was *requested* by the local Community Board in 2007. That doesn't sound like anyone's running roughshod over anyone else.

Drivers used to be out of control on this street. Now they drive respectfully, at about the speed limit. Regardless of the use of the extra lane (bike path, lemonade stand, stroller lane), that's a win for everyone.
Aug. 3, 2010, 10:42 am
Mike says:
"This lane achieves nothing for the people who live in the immediate area"

This is the opposite of true.

For cyclists, they get a safe place to ride.

Pedestrians get islands to help them cross the street, and calmer traffic when they cross. It really is far easier to cross the street, with much better visibility at crosswalks to boot.

Safe drivers no longer have to jockey for position on a speedway.

Everyone wins.
Aug. 3, 2010, 10:45 am
Gary from Park Slope says:
K

The improvement to the quality of life along PPW could not be more concrete and real. It feels like a beautiful street along one of the City's best parks instead of a highway cutting off the park from the neighborhood. And cars are adversely impacted only to the extent they are more likely to drive at a or near the speed limit. The risk has been significantly reduced of serious injury to bicyclist and pedestrian from a speeding car and that really counts!
Aug. 3, 2010, 10:46 am
James from WT says:
“Double-parking is still commonplace and the result is more noise from car-honking, more pollution from traffic jams and more frustration to residents and visitors alike,” Markowitz said.

Way to go Marty for toe'n the line for all the PPW Elites. Funny how he wouldn't take a shot at Ray Kelly for the lack of traffic law enforcement in the Paper.

Besides the fact that there was honking before the lane went in, usually from some frustrated driver trucking down PPW at 80mph. Where is Marty's data? Source?
Aug. 3, 2010, 10:52 am
Jabir ibn Hayyan from Park Slope says:
Driving test for Marty et.al.:

You are driving south on PPW and come up behind a car that is about to parallel park. You should:

A) Signal and carefully change lanes at the first opportunity.

B) Lay on the horn, press the pedal to the floor, whip into the other lane, and flip the bird to the driver of the parking car.
Aug. 3, 2010, 10:57 am
B from B says:
I rode the new lane recently to check it out after reading about it, although I don't live there and only pass through the area occasionally, and was very impressed. The speedway atmosphere on PPW definitely seems to have disappeared, leaving things much calmer and more civilized.

Hopefully the city will make similar improvements in other neighborhoods soon.

Keep up the good work!
Aug. 3, 2010, 11:01 am
K from Park Slope says:
"Get your facts straight. This was *requested* by the local Community Board in 2007. That doesn't sound like anyone's running roughshod over anyone else."

-----

Everyone - i.e. the majority of people in the neighborhood - wanted it? Mike, enlighten us. How did this happen? I'd guess, perhaps you can tell us, that a bike lane running the length of PPW doesn't happen, no less in a neighborhood as wealthy as Park Slope, without powerful players pulling strings.

My main point is: this lane solves nothing, saying that it does doesn't make it so, and it only creates different unsafe conditions. Though, yes, I'll admit: getting hit by a bike is likely better than getting hit by a car. I hope the poor souls have health insurance and are wearing helmets.
Aug. 3, 2010, 11:02 am
ch from bh says:
best bike lane in the city. and a calm 8th ave connects park slope to prospect park. awesome!

admit when you're wrong, marty. oh, sorry -- you're wrong so much, that would take up spend your entire day. then how about you just collect your $165,000 salary and stfu.
Aug. 3, 2010, 11:12 am
Qwert from Ft. Greene says:
Here's my take on Markowitz: He doesn't support bikes because they make him no money. He sniffs out the big kickback money for himself and his political buddies by supporting non-citizen friendly, greedy entities like basketball teams, Spike Lee, oil companies, automobile companies, real estate developers, supermarket chains and national franchises. That was before he got his start by suing us all after he slipped on the ice in Albany.
Aug. 3, 2010, 11:13 am
mitch from park slope says:
I suspect the opposition to the bike lane consists of Marty Mark and exactly one other individual...the troll appearing in these comments as "K". (Perhaps Marty Mark = K, making the opposition a party of one?)

Troll...buy a bike and ride the lane, enjoy life and stop ranting. No one knows what you're talking about. The bike lane is beautiful. Even you may appreciate that if you try it.
Aug. 3, 2010, 11:15 am
L from BK says:
Park Slope Neighbors isn't a real community group. It is essentially one guy: Eric McClure. And, it is basically an off-shoot of the Park Slope Civic Council. Given this, its studies do not deserve any kind of "press" coverage. These findings are not official DOT data, they do not represent the work of traffic engineers. They are Eric McClure's unscientific observations. To assess the full impact of the changes to PPW, data needs to be compiled over a much more lengthy period of time.

Given this, Marty is correct in dismissing Eric McClure's findings. I could go out, form a "group" called "Park Slope Citizens," and issue a report that completely contradicts Eric's. It is amateur nonesense and white noise. We can debate Marty's take on the actual engineer reports when DOT releases official findings at a future date.

No doubt those official reports, once issued, will show dramatic reductions in speeding, etc but at least they will be the work of pros and not a phony community group backed up by the Janette Sadik-Khan Blog aka Streetsblog.
Aug. 3, 2010, 11:18 am
Mike says:
Somehow I suspect that if the numbers had shown a lack of traffic calming, the opponents would have found them perfectly credible.

You don't need a radar gun to know that speeding on PPW has decreased dramatically. The street is suddenly pleasant to be around, instead of a deafening, frightening speedway.
Aug. 3, 2010, 11:33 am
Boris from Bay Ridge says:
L,

I'll take the word of non-engineer Eric McClure over the word of non-engineer Marty Markowitz any day, because McClure has data to back up his claim, and Markowitz doesn't.

Oh, and BTW, Sadik-Khan is the NYC DOT Commissioner - the one overseeing all the engineers - not some blogger. Just thought you might want to know that.
Aug. 3, 2010, 11:44 am
Eric McClure from Park Slope says:
L,

Why the anonymity? Aside from the fact that there are other people actively involved with Park Slope Neighbors, all of our major initiatives are backed by the collection of hundreds or thousands of signatures on petitions. The campaign we launched last spring asking DOT to calm traffic on PPW was backed by more than 1300 signatures. The current effort supporting the redesign of PPW has also been supported with more than 1300 signatures. We have a mailing list with more than 3300 email addresses that was built through a lot of legwork over several years.

PSN's observations were collected in the same manner that "pros" would collect the data. We don't claim that it's official, but it is accurate, and it's not nonsense. And it doesn't take a radar gun to see that speeding on PPW has been greatly reduced.
Aug. 3, 2010, 12:05 pm
Aaron Naparstek from Park Slope says:
Jeez, L from BK. You know, PSN isn't just Eric. I co-founded Park Slope Neighbors with Eric and David Alquist back in 2004. And Streetsblog isn't actually run by Janette Sadik-Khan. I started-up Streetsblog a couple of years before she became the DOT commissioner. So, I mean, really, I don't want to sound egotistical but I'd appreciate it if you'd direct a little animosity my way too. What's a guy got to do to get pilloried around here?
Aug. 3, 2010, 12:26 pm
Aaron Naparstek from Park Slope says:
BTW... I'll just add that the PSN speed gun study was really nicely done. The data that Eric and volunteers gathered is available upon request, if you or Marty want to try to challenge in any kind of objective way.
Aug. 3, 2010, 12:27 pm
me from Brooklyn says:
this is just another example of all the Yuppies that moved in to the area.They always seem to be the loudest.They ruined a great Place to live. I'm Just curious how long has everyone lived hear?
Aug. 3, 2010, 12:41 pm
justanotheropinion from Greenwood Heights says:
Hey Aaron,
no animosity just curiosity, do you bicycle to work? If so, how much of the year do you commute by bike? Do your co-workers and clients smell you during the workday or are you off by yourself somewhere?
How did you feel about commuting to work before JSK put in all the new bike lanes?
(I realize none of these questions pertain to this article, but since you have put yourself personally into this thread I thought I'd ask).
Aug. 3, 2010, 1:21 pm
Roberto from Park Slope says:
Have lived on the edge of Park Slope for 25 years. Personally it looks like this bike lane is more about slowing down traffic than it is about providing a place for bikes. When traveling from the Circle to Grand Army Plaza by bike I just used the roads in Prospect Park. Not a big deal. Getting a solid bike lane on Fourth Avenue, now that would be major.
Aug. 3, 2010, 1:24 pm
Pete from Park Slope says:
I live on the corner of President Street and PPW. The Bike Lane partition is a blessing to stop speeders. It also has provided a much needed protection for shoppers at the Saturday Farmer's Market at GAP.

If the parking rules were enforced in front of the Prospect Park Residence, especially on weekends, then the cars entering PPW from GAP would have an easier time. I get that the Juice/Dumpling/Ice Cream truck guys hve to make a living too but they shouldn't be in front of the hydrant on the corner of Union and PPW
Aug. 3, 2010, 1:39 pm
Steve from Jackson Heights says:
"Personally it looks like this bike lane is more about slowing down traffic than it is about providing a place for bikes."

Bingo. Based on that alone, it sounds to me like a great project.

What opponents of this project don't like is that they're no longer able to drive at dangerously fast speeds on PPW. I pity them. They feel threatened because the success of this project could lead to similar projects throughout the City. Their way of life is threatened.
Aug. 3, 2010, 1:41 pm
Me too from Brooklyn says:
@Me,

Yeah, the Yuppies have knocked Park Slope all the way down to #1 on New York Magazine's list of best NYC neighborhoods:

http://nymag.com/realestate/neighborhoods/2010/65374/index1.html

Totally ruined the place.
Aug. 3, 2010, 2:05 pm
Ryan Lee from Greenpoint says:
@Sam,

You can actually get more granular data from the census regarding commuting. Details for Park Slope below. And also, remember this was 2008 and and DOT is seeing annual increases in cycling

Census Table B08006 for PUMA 04005 (Park Slope)

Universe: WORKERS 16 YEARS AND OVER:
Public transportation (excluding taxicab) -- 45,185
Car, truck, or van -- 7,768
Walked -- 6,556
Worked at home -- 5,452
Bicycle -- 1,176

For both Park Slope and New York as a whole, bikers/walkers as commuters rival motorists.
Aug. 3, 2010, 2:35 pm
Marty Barfowitz from An Outer Borough says:
"This is just another example of all the Yuppies that moved in to the area.They always seem to be the loudest.They ruined a great Place to live."

Totally! Those damned yuppies. Prospect Park West was so much better when it was a genuine, outer borough, working class neighbor.... huh? What's that? You're telling me that Prospect Park West has been home to Brooklyn's most privileged residents for about 150 years?

I still hate the yuppies.
Aug. 3, 2010, 3:20 pm
Ann from Park Slope says:
It seems to me that most of the people in favor of the bike lane don't actually live near it. (they are, however, very good at calling people who disagree with them "trolls.")As someone who does, I have noticed a few things:
1) there never seems to be anyone on the bike lane, although still plenty of riders on the street and sidewalk
2) those that do use the bike lane never stop for pedestrians. Never.
3) our previously gracious street now looks like a parking lot.
4)If traffic calming were truly the issue, that could have been achieved with speed bumps (which would mean that the bikers would also have to slow down) and changing the timing of the signals.
5) The traffic problems will increase in the fall, when there will be school buses picking up and dropping students off along PPW).
6) Difficult to see how snow removal will be accomplished, since additional barriers are apparently going up.
7) THERE IS A BIKE LANE IN PROSPECT PARK.
Aug. 3, 2010, 3:57 pm
Howdy from Prospect Heights says:
K from Park Slope wrote: "Olmsted and Vaux are spinning in their graves."

Are you kidding? Over a bike lane? I'm sure they lay in their graves quietly while that atrocious Richard Meier glass thing was being erected on the Grand Army Plaza.
Aug. 3, 2010, 3:59 pm
J. Mork from Prospect Heights says:
Ryan -- those are great census numbers; thanks for posting.

Clearly, as long as we're getting upset about the reallocation of public space, the real travesty was ripping out Brooklyn's trolley lines for the masses so that the privileged driving minority could have maximum utility of the streets. Now, finally, that wrong is being ever so slightly righted on PPW. Onward.
Aug. 3, 2010, 4:04 pm
Chicken Underwear from Park Slope says:
“Double-parking is still commonplace and the result is more noise from car-honking, more pollution from traffic jams and more frustration to residents and visitors alike,” Markowitz said.

THEN STOP PEOPLE FROM DOUBLE PARKING
Aug. 3, 2010, 4:28 pm
Chicken Underwear from Park Slope says:
Ann from Park Slope says:
It seems to me that most of the people in favor of the bike lane don't actually live near it. (they are, however, very good at calling people who disagree with them "trolls.")As someone who does, I have noticed a few things:

I live on 8th Ave

1) there never seems to be anyone on the bike lane, although still plenty of riders on the street and sidewalk

What are you talking about.

2) those that do use the bike lane never stop for pedestrians. Never.

Never say never. I do and I am not alone

3) our previously gracious street now looks like a parking lot.

It was a auto raceway.

4)If traffic calming were truly the issue, that could have been achieved with speed bumps (which would mean that the bikers would also have to slow down) and changing the timing of the signals.

What??? Speed humps make speeding cars crash.

5) The traffic problems will increase in the fall, when there will be school buses picking up and dropping students off along PPW).

Let's see.

6) Difficult to see how snow removal will be accomplished, since additional barriers are apparently going up.

Snow removal will work the same way it does on 8th Ave.

7) THERE IS A BIKE LANE IN PROSPECT PARK.

IT IS ONE WAY AND CAN ONLY BE ENTERED FROM GRAND ARMY PLAZA, 3RD STREET AND BARTEL PRICHARD SQ. UNLESS YOU EXPECT ME TO RIDE ON THE SIDEWALK.
Aug. 3, 2010, 4:33 pm
Ann from PArk Slope says:
Speed bumps make cars crash?? apparently DOT doesn't have that info, because there are speed bumps on many of park slope's streets. And they work. So to the extent that ppw was a raceway speed bumps would fix that problem. I suspect that the opposition to them is that they make EVERYONE slow down.
With respect to the giant bike lane that we already have in park slope, I'm all in favor of closing the park to traffic, and making it two ways for bikes. the fact that it's not a direct route for you, though, shouldn't be a factor in changing the entire character of a street.
As for ridership on the bike lane, I rarely see anyone on it. But maybe that's just because I'm walking on PPW at rush hours. And on the weekends.
I'm glad you stop for pedestrians. But most bikers don't. and one of them hit a little kid this weekend near 9th st. And yes, cars can cause more damage---but the data posted on crash stat indicates that PPW was not a problem area in this regard.

Aug. 3, 2010, 5:05 pm
Not Goish from Prospect Heights says:
A few generations ago in the exact same place where the bike lanes are were trolley tracks. If one digs far down in some places, the tracks and their supports will still be there. Take a look at some old photos of the area and you'll see.
Aug. 3, 2010, 5:15 pm
Chicken Underwear from Park Slope says:
Seed bumps would only mean people speed from bump to bump.

Speed bumps cause bad drivers to crash.

http://www.timesnewsweekly.com/news/2010-07-08/Local_News/Resident_Claims_Speed_Bump____Helped_Trigger_Car_A.html
Aug. 3, 2010, 5:16 pm
ilovebrooklyn from Park Slope says:
"It seems to me that most of the people in favor of the bike lane don't actually live near it."

Prospect Park West resident here, and I'm definitely in favor of the bike lane. Who wants to live on a highway? Traffic is now slower and quieter. I think the bike lane looks great. Plus, I honestly don't understand why we wouldn't want to encourage more biking in this town. Pollution-free, cheap and accessible to the masses (at least, more so than cars), and it probably provides some savings in public health dollars, too!
Aug. 3, 2010, 8:27 pm
Chicken Underwear from Park Slope says:
"Speed bumps make cars crash?? apparently DOT doesn't have that info, because there are speed bumps on many of park slope's streets. And they work. So to the extent that ppw was a raceway speed bumps would fix that problem. I suspect that the opposition to them is that they make EVERYONE slow down."

The speed bumps that I can thing of in Park Slope are in front of school to make everyone go REALLY slow.
Aug. 3, 2010, 9:23 pm
Derek from Park Slope says:
As a PPW resident for the past 3 years and a Park Slope resident for 8, as well as a car owner, the bike lane benefits me in NO way. It's made it hard to stop to drop off groceries, my band equipment or anything else from my car into my apartment unless there happens to be a spot right there. Even the hydrant is often taken and I find myself circling until whoever is parked at the hydrant pulls out. (Please note that I'm not a rich yuppie, I drive a very functional 94 Honda.)

I'd also like to add that because the street has become so narrow, I find it extrememly dangerous getting in and out of a car on the street side on that block, as well as on the bike lane side if I'm parked there. I'm sure one day a car passenger will be injured on this block and only then will the bike sympathizers consider the other side. No one seems to care about the car owners - local or visitors coming to enjoy Prospect Park - unfortunately.

I also want to reiterate all of Ann's points here...
1) there never seems to be anyone on the bike lane, although still plenty of riders on the street and sidewalk
2) those that do use the bike lane never stop for pedestrians. Never.
3) our previously gracious street now looks like a parking lot.
4)If traffic calming were truly the issue, that could have been achieved with speed bumps (which would mean that the bikers would also have to slow down) and changing the timing of the signals.
5) The traffic problems will increase in the fall, when there will be school buses picking up and dropping students off along PPW).
6) Difficult to see how snow removal will be accomplished, since additional barriers are apparently going up.
7) THERE IS A BIKE LANE IN PROSPECT PARK.

I agree with all but 7.. The only benefit I really see is that people can now bike in the reverse direction along PPW. Couldn't that have been accomplished by making a lane inside the park that goes the other way or allocating some of the very spacious sidewalk? Surely there must have been a better way.

If the goal is to slow down traffic, how about traffic police give out tickets for infractions? I believe that's how the rest of the country deters and punishes people who don't follow traffic rules. I wonder if those people who were signing the petition would have been informed of possible alternatives... how many times were you given the other side when asked to sign a petition?

But in particular I'm most upset about 3. I admit this is somewhat selfish, but its really sad to see my beautiful block turned into a parking lot. It's really quite an eyesore and I think confusing and dangerous to pedestrians and cars paseengers. But alas no one asked me (or anyone else, I presume) to sign the anti-petition. And the lane is there... on the other side of the cars parked in the middle of the street. I just hope it's not me that's injured to make the sad point for the car owners (and car visitors) to the neighborhood that there's more to this city than bikers.
Aug. 4, 2010, 2:24 am
James from WT says:
@Derek & Ann

Anecdotes do not make facts, but in the spirit of things I will add my own anecdotes for good measure...

I always stop for peds when I am riding AND I am never the only rider in the bike lane. Never.

Given even numbers, Cyclists will never pose the same danger to the community as a Vehicle.

If you wanted to express your opinion there was a lengthy Community Board process with much debate. Where were you?

I agree the traffic enforcement is a critical miss in the project so far. But as much as I would like to see the people who were racing down PPW get a ticket; I would rather the NYPD find the mob that murdered that kid on 5th Ave, than save some nitwit from themselves.

Just a reminder parking at a hydrant is illegal and you are putting your convenience ahead of your neighbor's safety. There is a reason you can't park at a hydrant. Get a dolly.

Regarding petitions, if you sign the assumption is that you are aware and informed of what you are putting your name on. To suggest that it is the responsibility of the petitioning party to inform you, really gives an insight into just how far past your nose you are looking... not far if there was any question.
Aug. 4, 2010, 8:28 am
Andrew from Windsor Terrace says:
The "looking like a parking lot" argument is the dumbest one trucked out. What makes it look like a parking lot is... all the cars parked there.

Which suggests that there's an easy solution to the problem of PPW looking like a parking lot, but I think you all would like it even less....
Aug. 4, 2010, 9:38 am
Sam from Park Slope says:
@Ryan Lee

Thanks for posting those additional census figures. Previously I had posed ones covering all of NYC which showed that .6% of people commuted by bike. You posted ones which specifically cover Park Slope:
---------------------------------------------------------
Census Table B08006 for PUMA 04005 (Park Slope)

Universe: WORKERS 16 YEARS AND OVER:
Public transportation (excluding taxicab) -- 45,185
Car, truck, or van -- 7,768
Walked -- 6,556
Worked at home -- 5,452
Bicycle -- 1,176
---------------------------------------------------------
I just ran the percentages and they show that bicyclists make up 1.8% of Park Slope commuters. Yes, that's bigger than .6% but scarcely enough to justify the negative consequences of the bike lane. (See Ann's post above.)

And for those posting about the speeders, please check Transportation Alternatives "Crashstat" website and compare the numbers for PPW against the other major avenues in the Slope.

PPW was *far* safer than any other avenue. Go on. Look it up.
Aug. 4, 2010, 9:47 am
Mike says:
Why do the opponents keep talking about this project as if the only goal were a bike lane? It's primarily a TRAFFIC CALMING project. And it has worked (see this article). End of story.
Aug. 4, 2010, 10:05 am
Chicken Underwear from Park Slope. says:
"I'd also like to add that because the street has become so narrow......"

it is not the same with as 8th Ave. What is the big deal.
Aug. 4, 2010, 10:15 am
Jabir ibn Hayyan from Park Slope says:
Not sure what the crashstat statistics measure and I haven't looked them up. But they need to be viewed in conjunction with bicycle usage statistics. Fewer people biked PPW before because it was extremely intimidating for cyclists; consequently bicycle usage was lower and cycle crashes may well have been low due to low usage. Statistically, Interstate 80 probably appears to be an extremely safe environment for cycling as well. With the PPW lane installed, cycling usage can now ramp up without compromising safety.
Aug. 4, 2010, 11:54 am
henry ford from bay ridge says:
The good news is that the folks that are most affected are those that live on PPW and the immediate area. (Who do you think is doing all the double parking?) It won't take long until they have had enough of this moronic idea and demand that the bike lanes be removed.

Bike lane removal will be a great job stimulus program for the next mayor.
Aug. 4, 2010, 12:06 pm
enrique from Greenwood Heights says:
What is the problem with cars driving fast? Cars still stop at red lights for pedestrians to cross. Why should the residents along PPW care how fast the cars are going? They're not playing human Frogger.
In this city's past people learned to deal with riding a bicycle in the street and sharing the road with cars or they didn't ride. Now people feel they have a right to cycle to work, maybe you do, but you also need to realize that without cars and trucks there would be no NYC for you to ride to work in.
There will never be bike lines on every street so, if you can't handle riding a bicycle in the street you shouldn't be riding. End of Story.
Aug. 4, 2010, 12:38 pm
Suzanne from Ditmas Park says:
When the bike lane was proposed, pro-speeders claimed it would cause fatal bicyclist/pedestrian accidents (as if cars don't take thousands of lives every single year). Now that you're being forced to confront the fact that PPW is safer you’re falling back on tired old canards that have been disproved over and over -- No, speed bumps/stop signs/etc don't do jack -- in fact, people usually speed *more* between to make up for "lost time"... AS YOU WELL KNOW!

I ride the lanes every day. At least once a week I see parents teaching their little kids to ride there (obviously because they’re so darn dangerous.) People walk peacefully on the sidewalks, free of bicycles. Bicyclists ride peacefully on the lanes. Drivers drive moderately down the road. And I’ve never heard any honking, either, so I think the traffic calming has calmed more than traffic. It’s all very low key and pleasant.

Which all leads me to the conclusion that you’re nothing more than a bunch of selfish jerks who don’t give a crap about the safety, well being, or even the lives of anyone else as long as you’re able to speed anywhere, at any time, regardless of the consequences to your fellow citizens. So, quite honestly, you can go screw yourselves.
Aug. 4, 2010, 12:47 pm
brosti from Park Slope says:
I live on PPW and am VERY grateful for the new bike lane. It has really reduced the speeding problems and is a nice place to bike, especially with kids. It also helps keep bikers off the sidewalk along the park, which is good for pedestrians.
Aug. 4, 2010, 12:51 pm
enrique from Greenwood Heights says:
Lex from Park Slope says:
richie rich from parkslope said:
"As I remember correctly, before the bike lane crossing from prospect park west to the park was very dangerous. The cars zooming down the street over 60 mph and it encourage speeding."

This point keeps being made over and over again and it's flat out wrong.

I used Crashstat, a website created by Transportation Alternatives, the bicycle advocacy group to see just how "unsafe" PPW is. Crashstat links pedestrian and bicycle crash statistics to a map showing where they occured. I compared PPW from President St. over to 15th St. (a 19 block span) with the matching sections of 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th avenues. The results were amazing.

For the 10 year period from 1995 to 2005 (the last year covered) Crashstat shows the following accident statistics -

5th Ave. - 234 (1.23 accidents per block per year)

6th Ave. - 73 (.38 accidents per block per year)

7th Ave. - 114 (.6 accidents per block per year)

8th Ave. - 63 (.33 accidents per block per year)

PPW - 27 (.14 accidents per block per year)

The "safety" argument for the PPW bike lane is a lie. Prospect Park West is by far the safest major street in the neighborhood.
Aug. 4, 2010, 12:56 pm
Daniel from Park Slope says:
thank you Park Slope Neighbors for your advocacy on making PPW a better place for cars, bikes and peds. The changes have worked.
Aug. 4, 2010, 12:58 pm
Chris from Park Slope says:
enrique: "Safety" in terms of crash statistics is bogus. Speed is a killer, regardless of how many accidents occur. A pedestrian hit by a car travelling at 40 mph has a 15% chance of surviving. At 30 mph, those odds improve to 45%. At 20 mph, those odds improve to over 80%. The majority of cars were driving over 30 mph before the bike lane was implemented. Now, the majority drive under 30 mph. That makes PPW safer now, period.
Aug. 4, 2010, 1:08 pm
Enrique from Greenwood Heights says:
Yes Speed is a killer, but if you'd just stay out of the street and cross in the crosswalk when you are supposed to, you would't get hit or killed by a car. Speed would be irrelevant.
Aug. 4, 2010, 1:14 pm
Chris from Park Slope says:
So, Enrique, nobody in a car ever runs a red light or fails to yield to a pedestrian who has the right-of-way? What street are you walking on? Or are you even walking at all?
Aug. 4, 2010, 1:26 pm
Sam from Park Slope says:
Here's a question for all the people pushing the "traffic calming" justification -

If safety was your highest priority, why didn't you push for traffic calming on the streets with the most accidents like 5th Ave. and 7th Ave? Why did you go after the safest street in the neighborhood?
Aug. 4, 2010, 1:30 pm
Enrique from Greenwood Heights says:
Yes I'm walking, all my life and I have yet to be hit by a car. Do want to know why? Because I look before I cross a street. I even Bicycle and skateboard in the streets too, still haven't been hit by a car. (Even on PPW).
Sure, cars run lights or fail to yield to pedestrians. But how many of those are accidents? And how many people who are hit get hit that way? The traffic speed issue is more than a little overblown. Look at 5th Ave, cars are slower but there are more accidents.
Aug. 4, 2010, 1:44 pm
Chris from Park Slope says:
Sam, the answer is simple: safety improvements on PPW could be done in the most effective and efficient manner with the least amount of disruption. There are no businesses or residences on the east side of PPW, unlike the other avenues you cite.

Again, I'll cite speed... the incidence of speeding was much higher on PPW than 5th and 7th Avenues.

And Enrique, regardless of how often you try to follow the rule of law, you can be hit by a car. A speeding car takes longer to come to a stop, travels further after a collision, and poses a larger threat to life and limb. A fair number of pedestrian injuries and deaths in NYC come from bystanders on the sidewalk who are hit by cars who lose control. In a car, loss of control is directly related to speed.
Aug. 4, 2010, 2:35 pm
Dave from Park Slope says:
@Sam,

They're next.
Aug. 4, 2010, 2:45 pm
Enrique from Greenwood Heights says:
Chris, speed relates to the amount of control lost not the actual loss of control. For example, if my brakes have failed at a stop it does not make a difference, but at a high rate of speed it does. It's splitting hairs and it doesn't negate the overall point you are making but it still true. (I am having a really slow day.)
It is way too early to tell whether these calming measures will actually have an effect in lowering the amount of accidents and pedestrian fatalities.
I still feel that the overwhelming majority of pedestrian fatalities occur when pedestrians put themselves in the path of a car with out being aware, not cars just running people down in crosswalks or on sidewalks. (the only places a pedestrian should be).
Aug. 4, 2010, 3:09 pm
Steve from Brooklyn says:
Enrique,

Here's a study that found that drivers were at fault in "almost 90% of pedestrian and bicyclist deaths".

http://www.rightofway.org/news/kbarelease.html

(It also found that about a dozen people are killed each year on the sidewalk by motor vehicles; I'm not sure how crossing with the light will help with that.)
Aug. 4, 2010, 3:19 pm
Enrique from Greenwood Heights says:
Did you read it that study? (besides skimming it quickly to find the part that supports your argument?) Did it seem like an unbiased study to you? Should I still consider it current and valid if it's 13 years old? Did they work with a complete set of data?

I'm sure that anybody with enough time and effort could poke holes all through it.
Even granting that all of it is not skewed I still say, the more aware a pedestrian is, the less likely they are to get hit by a car. Any NYC driver knows the worst pedestrians are in Brooklyn. Crossing the street with out looking first, using a blackberry, ipod or just day-dreaming, this report fails to consider the awareness of the pedestrian. We are somewhat responsible for ourselves, are we not?
Aug. 4, 2010, 4:18 pm
Sam from Park Slope says:
@ Sam -
"Sam, the answer is simple: safety improvements on PPW could be done in the most effective and efficient manner with the least amount of disruption. There are no businesses or residences on the east side of PPW, unlike the other avenues you cite. "

So instead of going after the streets where there are plenty of accidents you went after a street with hardly any because it was *easy.*

Here's an alternative explanation - a relative handful of bicyclists (2% of the population) wanted another bike lane and the safety argument is just a smokescreen.
Aug. 4, 2010, 4:22 pm
Chris from Park Slope says:
Yes, Sam, because the exact second that bicyclists want a bike lane, the DOT AND the Community Board bow down and give it to them.

If that's how it works, I'll go out and buy a bike right now so I can demand a bike lane on Seventh Avenue!
Aug. 4, 2010, 4:53 pm
mitch from park slope says:
"Enrique", "Sam", "Ann", various other trolls and "old timers":

Why is that none of your arguments ever really make sense? Ranting and raving about "yuppies" (last time that term meant something was in the '80s)? Carrying on like a bike lane and the loss of three parking spaces is the end of your world?

Those of us who like bikes and the bike lane are those who have raised your property values and put Brooklyn back on the map culturally. If you feel out of place, move to Queens. Plenty of space out there for you to gun your old cars around. Or better yet, how about a red state?
Aug. 4, 2010, 4:58 pm
Zookeeper from Prospect Park West Zoo says:
Please, do not feed the trolls.
Aug. 4, 2010, 5:18 pm
Enrique from greenwood says:
Hey Mitch,
(for the record I made none of the arguments you lump me into, but since you brought it up I'll respond to some of them).

that's a pretty high opinion of yourself there:
"Those of us who like bikes and the bike lane are those who have raised your property values and put Brooklyn back on the map culturally."
I guess Brooklyn had nothing to offer the rest of the world until you and the other bike enthusiasts moved here. Hell, our property wasn't even valuable. I should thank you.
Did it ever occur to you that the "dreamers" who come here these days want nothing more than to mold this place into the image off what they think it should be. (Portland for example, is the most bike friendly city, why can't we be more like Portland) IF THAT'S REALLY WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO YOU, WHY DON'T YOU GO THERE!?

I didn't feel out of place until all you scared (not my first choice of words) bike riders started demanding bike lanes so you could "feel" safe and sanctimoniously started acting like you were better than anyone who wasn't riding to work or living without a car.

No transplant seems to understand that they are altering the very fabric of what made this teeming city great. The same greatness that drew you here, that you longed to be a part of, you are destroying.
Why don't you go back to Portland or Austin where you can raise the property values and bring some culture there instead.
Aug. 4, 2010, 5:32 pm
Enrique from greenwood says:
Hey Zookeeper,
What use is a comments section if everyone agrees? You call them trolls but wouldn't this page be far more boring if everyone just agreed in lockstep?
Aug. 4, 2010, 5:34 pm
Ann from Park Slope says:
Last time I checked it was still ok to express disagreement with action taken by government officials. I don't think it really enhances your position to call those who disagree with you "trolls," "old timers," and "selfish jerks," any more than it would behoove us to call you sanctimonious hipsters transplanted from the suburbs.
Believe it or not, bike lane advocates didn't invent social responsibility. Some of the slope residents actually know a thing or two about it. Not all of us oppose this kind of bike lane because of an interest in cars. Many of us have invested quite a bit in our beloved neighborhood, and I don't mean monetarily. It wasn't always the jewel that it is today. So it's fine to advocate for your position. But I think those of us who live here have a right to express an opinion---this affects us each and every day.
Aug. 4, 2010, 6:03 pm
Derek from Prospect Park West says:
I'd like to reiterate how dangerously narrow the street has become for people getting in and out of cars. Literally you door can not be the least bit ajar if a bus is passing. Its a death trap. Luckily for residents, they're aware of this hopefully, but its a tremendous danger for unsuspecting visitors.

Yes, 8th Ave is bad, but not this bad. 6th Ave may be this bad, but it certainly doesn't make it ok. Especially when there's an option NOT to create this situation.

I dare any of you to get in or out of a parked car on that street and tell me its not a serious hazard. Even the biking advocates can not deny this. The bike lane has come at the expense of 1) space for people getting in and out of cars and 2) space for flexibility for drivers to avoid those people. I guarantee you there will be an unfortunate and serious incident in the near future.

Before anyone suggests it... No you can not always get out on the sidewalk side because 1) you may be in the passenger seat when the car is parked to the left or the driver parked on the right 2) you may have a baby in a car seat on the traffic side of the street 3) the sidewalk side is the bike lane 50% of the time (which is no more spacious).

And in response to James above, if you think every person who signs a petition is fully (or even half) informed, I'm sad for but somewhat jealous of your naivety. Its not that hard to dupe a lot of people... Look at George Bush!
Aug. 4, 2010, 6:23 pm
AW from Park Slope says:
The bike lane has:
1) Increased car-honking (noise pollution)
2) Made it unsafe to get in and out of a car along the park - there is now so little room. Take a look at how tight it is after 9th street - really.
3) Made it unsafe for pedestrians. I myself have seen a person get hit by a bike because the biker didn't pay attention to the flashing yellow light or the sign which says that bikers are to yield to pedestrians. (BTW the pedestrian had the light). Bikers now zip by going both ways on PPW and they act like they own the road - as a pedestrian it is now really scary - a 4 year old was just hit by a biker.
4) Made it so that drivers now routinely park in the crosswalk and the "loading/unloading" zones. Come to 14th Street and PPW on a weekend night to see what I mean.

It is bad design people, not a bad idea but bad design. Put the bike lane outside the parked cars, make the bike land only go one way, put actual street lights (green, yellow and red) that the bikers need to abide by, ticket drivers who park in the crosswalk and "loading/unloading" zones.
Aug. 4, 2010, 7:41 pm
jay from pslope says:
I live by this bike lane and here are some of the things I see, 1) Bikers ridding down the middle of the street against traffic despite the bike lanes, 2) bikers riding on the sidewalks 3) Bikers disobeying all traffic signals and refusing to yield to pedestrians, as they are required by law to do 4) traffic does seems slower, 5) traffic does back up because a car is loading/unloading leaving only one lane open, sometimes no lanes open if the garbage trucks are going through 6) Pedestrians really do have a hard time crossing and then crossing through parked cars and numerous reckless bicycles. 7) cars are parking illegally in the crosswalks 8) bikes have no way to exit the bike lane to get to the other side of the street or a different street 9) cops don't enforce any traffic laws period and maybe a lot of problems wold go away if they did. Maybe we could all live with this change better if the people who are acting like turds on two wheels got tickets and the people in cars backing up traffic got their cars impounded, but then that would require the city to actually do something to solve a problem rather than pass out some good old fashioned political b.s window dressing.
Aug. 4, 2010, 9:04 pm
mitch from Park Slope says:
"Enrique":

I apologize to the trolls I grouped you with for suggesting they are like you. Their arguments may be outright lies, false choices, phony strawmen, irrational fears, etc., but they at least sound credible if you don't use the bike lane and/or actually live in Park Slope. (I know they're trolls because they make the same arguments almost verbatim on other sites under other names.)

Your arguments, on the other hand, are just ipso facto ridiculous. (On the other hand, they're so "unique" that they couldn't be the work of a troll.) They could almost have been lifted from The Onion.

Here's one of your priceless quotes, from above:

"What is the problem with cars driving fast? Cars still stop at red lights for pedestrians to cross. Why should the residents along PPW care how fast the cars are going? They're not playing human Frogger. In this city's past people learned to deal with riding a bicycle in the street and sharing the road with cars or they didn't ride."

Here's another (I can't even figure out what this one means):
"Chris, speed relates to the amount of control lost not the actual loss of control. For example, if my brakes have failed at a stop it does not make a difference, but at a high rate of speed it does."

And this one:

"Any NYC driver knows the worst pedestrians are in Brooklyn."

(Actually, people generally say this about Brooklyn drivers, not pedestrians.)

And this masterpiece of empericism:
"I still feel that the overwhelming majority of pedestrian fatalities occur when pedestrians put themselves in the path of a car..."

Basically, your argument goes beyond your resentment of the new arrivals (most of us are from Manhattan, by the way) who are restoring creative energy and culture to this borough. (Let's be honest - Brooklyn's original glory days are at least 60 years in the past). It appears you hate traffic laws, pedestrians, and anyone with the nerve to get run over by a car or worry about the same.
Aug. 4, 2010, 11:09 pm
Chris from Park Slope says:
If you can't get out of your car safely on Prospect Park West, you probably shouldn't be driving.

Here's a very simple lesson, drivers and car passengers: look over your shoulder for traffic. If there are cars coming, DON'T OPEN YOUR DOOR!
Aug. 5, 2010, 12:37 am
Ann from PArk Slope says:
Mitch--
IT was you who saved park slope? I hadn't realized that you were the one who did that. You've toiled in anonymity too long.. Remember the days when you couldn't go into the park? When the kids couldn't play there because of the crack vials and used needles? You changed all that----the work you've put into the "celebrate brooklyn" series, your efforts with the prospect park alliance---
thanks for making this a great place to live.
Aug. 5, 2010, 8:11 am
James from WT says:
I always love when Brooklynites talk about the good old days, and how much they had to do with the changes happening in Brooklyn now. Generally all they did to usher in change is raise the rent they were charging for the illegal basement apartment, or decided to rent the commercial space to a Nail Salon. The reason Brooklyn changed is because that is NYC does (that and property values), it changes every ~10 years, and there is really nothing anyone can do about it.

Fact is that most people who are new residents of Brooklyn are committed to the community, much in the same way people who stuck it out during some of the dark times the boro has gone through did. The debate is nothing new for Brooklyn, it is really the same old story.

Its a bike lane....

@Derek - The responsibility to inform yourself is yours and yours alone. Take responsibility for your actions.
Aug. 5, 2010, 8:54 am
mitch from Park Slope says:
Ann,

Those things are in the past. We're talking about the future. Lead, follow or get out of the way.

Thanks!
Aug. 5, 2010, 9:28 am
Ann from Park Slope says:
Don't think I was the one claiming I'd transformed the borough. That was brother Mitch. My point was just that we care about our neighborhood and have for quite some time. I've never had an illegal basement apartment, though. Nor have I ever rented to a nail salon (although I am partial to a good pedicure).
Of course you're right----it's only a bike lane. I'm just perplexed by the demonization of anyone who dares question this particular kind of bike lane on this particular block. The "If you don't agree with every single thing I say, you're old, selfish, a troll, a car loving anti-environmentalist, and a big fat liar." Seems a rather juvenile way to debate....almost kind of like they do in "red states."
Mitch, keep up the trailblazing work! We expect more great things from you.
Aug. 5, 2010, 10:01 am
Suzanne from Ditmas Park says:
Yes, you have the right to say any damn fool think you like. And others have the right to call you out when your selfishness affects them. This is "the tragedy of the commons" - public space abused by a few so they can benefit at the expense of everyone else. And no, you are *not* allowed to do *that*.

Whether I like it or not there's only one planet. We all have to live here. Personally, I'm doing my best to make sure that it's here after I'm gone. What are you doing? There may be problems but are you working to fix them or are you part of the problem? When *you're* gone, will you leave the world better, safer and kinder or will your life be a testimony to defending the privilege to cause great harm to everyone else so that you wouldn't be *inconvenienced*?
Aug. 5, 2010, 10:06 am
Dave from Park Slope says:
Like Chris says, if you can't get in and out of your car safely on PPW, you shouldn't be driving. The road is the same width as 8th and 6th, and I don't know of any instances of someone being struck getting in or out of his or her car. Since PPW gets little more than 1,000 cars per hour at peak usage, that allows for plenty of gaps.

Really, if these are the best arguments you can come up with, it's time to throw in the towel. The redesign of PPW is complete, so y'all should try to get used to it.
Aug. 5, 2010, 10:25 am
mitch from Park Slope says:
It's a bike lane! Get a bike and try it!
Aug. 5, 2010, 10:44 am
Derek from Prospect Park West says:
Dave and Chris -

Please try getting in and out of a car on that block or if you don't own a car try standing next to a car on the street side when the traffic is coming. Tell me how comfortable you would feel if you needed a moment to get in or out of the car. I'm sure the elderly and those with children who need a couple of minutes to get in and out of cars appreciate your putting their needs ahead of physically fit and active bicyclists.

I have to accept the bike lane because it's there, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Obviously I see the benefit for bikers, but you CAN NOT deny that the bike lane has created a hazard on that road for people who are parking as well as the drivers who are passing them. There's no way to avoid it sometimes - you'd understand that if you put yourself on the other side for a moment. My point is that the bikers are now better off at the expense of car owners.

But seriously just try it, pretend you need a moment to help someone out of a car on the street side and come back here and tell us all how safe it feels.
Aug. 5, 2010, 10:47 am
Steve from Brooklyn says:
Enrique wrote:

"Did you read it that study? (besides skimming it quickly to find the part that supports your argument?) Did it seem like an unbiased study to you? Should I still consider it current and valid if it's 13 years old? Did they work with a complete set of data?"

I participated in the creation of it. I do not think it is biased, no. Police reports were obtained via FOIA requests and if the driver was breaking a law, he or she was considered at least partially at fault. Cases where there was not enough information to decide were thrown out. No, I don't think conditions have changed much since the years that were studied.

I've never seen a detailed analysis by any other entity that would be anywhere near as credible. If you know of one, I'd like to hear about it.
Aug. 5, 2010, 11:06 am
Chicken Underwear from Park Slope says:
"I have to accept the bike lane because it's there, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Obviously I see the benefit for bikers, but you CAN NOT deny that the bike lane has created a hazard on that road for people who are parking as well as the drivers who are passing them"

It is LESS than a hazard than it was before. The road is only as narrow as 8th Ave and now more of the cars are going the speed limit. So it is SAFER to get out of your car not.
Aug. 5, 2010, 11:07 am
Peggy from Heights says:
What about a scooter lane? I scooter (foot powered Razor) everyday to work but I can't use the bike lane because of the bikes, not can I use the sidewalk because of all the strollers. What about my needs? Where is the lane for lame people like me? If bikers are so concerned about the environment, why don't they support and help those of use that have only one working leg?

Also, this shouldn't be a biker vs car war. If the MTA wasn't so dysfunctional, more people would use public transportation and there would be more room for all.

btw- the proper way to get out of your car into a bike lane (from one who knows) is to open the door all the way, wait for a moment or two, and then get out.
Aug. 5, 2010, 11:20 am
Derek from Prospect Park West says:
As a car owner on that block for 3 years, I certainly feel considerably less safe getting in and out my car since the bike lane has been installed. I'd rather give the oncoming traffic at 40mph room to avoid me while I'm getting out of the car than have a car coming at me at 30mph with no room to avoid me. And again, there are isntances when you just need a little more time to get out of the car on that side and it's a lot harder for you to do that now.

We can agree to disagree on this one.
Aug. 5, 2010, 11:24 am
Suzanne from Rath says:
You know what? You're right. Let's give up the traffic calming on PPW because it takes a little more time for you to get out of your car. So what if pedestrian fatalities double at 40 mph from 30 mph (http://www.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11_10/Fatality_rates.gif). What's important is saving you time!

While we're at it, I'm going to get the DOT to get rid of car traffic on the streets by where *I* live because I actually have to wait for them to pass before I take off. The horror!
Aug. 5, 2010, 11:59 am
Chris from Park Slope says:
Derek, again... it's the same width as any other avenue in the neighborhood. Do you ever park on 8th Avenue or any side street? If so, you face the same problem of cars travelling 30 mph near your door. Stop grasping at straws here. The same way that pedestrians have to look before crossing a street, you have to look down the street before getting in and out of your car. Don't blame street design for your inability to get in and out of a car safely.
Aug. 5, 2010, 12:04 pm
Chicken Underwear from Park Slope. says:
and Derek remember if you park on the left side of PPW you have that nice new stripped area to step onto. Extra Safe
Aug. 5, 2010, 12:25 pm
Derek from Prospect Park West says:
As I said before, I'm actually less concerned about me than people who can not get in and out of their cars quickly i.e. the elderly, people with children. If you're turning it into a personal attack on me, you're clearly not getting it and not reading my post for comprehension. I'm aware of the situation and I'll have to deal with it, but like I said, people who NEED more time or space to get in and out of their cars, DO NOT have it.

I know you guys probably don't get it because you haven't done it multiple times a week for years. It's less safe.

Bikers share the same space that drivers and passengers do to get in and out of cars. From my past biking experience, 6th Ave is the worst to ride on. 8th Ave is slightly better. Imagine trying to ride down PPW now in the space between the traffic and parked cars especially south of 9th st. I bet its basically impossible. And sure you can time getting in and out with the traffic, but like I said, sometimes people need more than the 30 or 60 seconds. (And the side streets are luxuriously wide compared to any the avenues. Bikers know this too.)

Suzanne - Right, getting hit by a fast car is worse than getting hit by a slow car. Thank you. Having an extra lane to move into, also makes it easier for drivers to avoid things in their lane. I would argue the primary goal is not getting hit (my point). If someone gets hit, hopefully it's by a slower vehicle (your point).

Chicken Underwear - that striped area helps getting out on the left side, but my passenger MUST get out on the street side.

Chris - If you think this is grasping at straws, then you clearly just don't get it / just won't listen / don't want to consider the other side. It's a real danger that you won't understand until you put yourself in that position.

Dave - This is not my only point, far from it - see above, but it seems to be the topic people want to talk about. See Ann's list above.

I know no one here designed it, but the bike lane has come at the expense of car owners and passengers. Again just try and ride down the space between the parked cars and traffic now and you'll know exactly what I mean. (And as a reminder, it's not for me, but for other people who may need more time than the time between waves of traffic to get in and out of their cars.)

Thanks for, at least, listening to the other side.
Aug. 5, 2010, 2:19 pm
Jabir from Park Slope says:
Nobody's forcing anyone to park on PPW.
Aug. 5, 2010, 2:30 pm
Derek from Prospect Park West says:
Right Jabir. But no one was forcing people to bike down PPW before the bike lane either.
Aug. 5, 2010, 3:12 pm
Jabir from Park Slope says:
Agreed; very few ppl biked down PPW previously. Too dangerous.
Aug. 5, 2010, 3:28 pm
Chris from Park Slope says:
@Derek: "you clearly just don't get it / just won't listen / don't want to consider the other side. It's a real danger that you won't understand until you put yourself in that position."

I do get it. I've gotten into cars on streets far narrower than PPW. You are making an issue out of something that could easily be solved by waiting for a gap in traffic to open your door. It's as simple as that.

If you'd like, I will gladly escort you to your car and tell you when it's safe to open your door, since you seem unwilling or unable to wait a few seconds for some cars to pass.
Aug. 5, 2010, 3:48 pm
Enrique from Greenwood Heights says:
Steve,
I do not have a study besides the one you helped make.
I feel the bias I referred to was clear. The report's title itself is biased. "Killed By an Automobile" is not exactly the name of a scientific study and it was written to promote your agenda. I'm not saying the data is reported incorrectly but it isn't presented in a neutral way.
Also, how many pedestrians would admit that getting hit was their fault? Especially if it would jeopardize a lawsuit.

And Hey Mitch,
Judging from your last reply you may need a reading comprehension class. If you can't understand any of my simple statements I'm sorry I just don't have the time to make them for any more simple.
And BTW, I am from Manhattan- born and raised- yet because I left Manhattan to explore the rest of the city BEFORE I moved here I know that you haven't made Brooklyn any better. You've just made it more elitist and annoying.
Aug. 5, 2010, 4 pm
Derek from Prospect Park West says:
Jabir - You've basically boiled it down to the exact issue. The rights and interests of bikers supercedes the rights of car passengers and the other residents / constituents who oppose the bike lane (for ANY reason). I know some people like it - even non-bikers - but to me it feels like the tail wagging the dog.

Chris - You've again proved that "you clearly just don't get it / just won't listen / don't want to consider the other side" when you're making it about me again. Either that or you have no response to the issue I'm ACTUALLY talking about.
Aug. 5, 2010, 4:16 pm
Chris from Park Slope says:
Derek: No, I get it. You're making the argument that for OTHERS, cars "pass too close" for drivers to open their door. But let's face the facts: the traffic lane and parking lane are separated by just as much space as they were before (one thin white line). Prior to construction, ALL drivers still had to look before getting out of their vehicles, regardless of how long it took to leave their vehicles.

Drivers both abled and disabled manage to enter and exit their vehicles without getting hit every day on other streets in the city that are much narrower and carry much more traffic than PPW.

And now, since the average speed of traffic has decreased to under 30 mph, if God forbid one of these drivers is hit, they actually stand a chance of surviving.
Aug. 5, 2010, 4:26 pm
Chris from Park Slope says:
And Derek, there have never always been free parking spaces on PPW. These drivers obviously have experience parking on narrower streets. What have the elderly and families done when they weren't able to find a space on PPW before? Did they just not park?
Aug. 5, 2010, 4:29 pm
Howard from Prospect Park West says:
The next step is to make 5th, 6th & 7th Avenue one way and create dedicated bike lanes like on Prospect Park West. If it is good enough for Prospect Park West it should be an excellent idea for the other main thoroughfares.
Aug. 5, 2010, 4:41 pm
Dave from Park Slope says:
Howard, if you were really from Park Slope, you'd know that the community was COMPLETELY UNITED in rejecting DOT's proposed conversion of 6th and 7th Avenues to one-way travel in 2006 (under the regime of PPW redesign-basher Iris Weinshall).

It's a traffic-calmed avenue, people. In the People's Republic of Park Slope. Who needs red states when we can get worked up over slowing cars down and making it easier to cycle.

Yeesh.
Aug. 5, 2010, 10:57 pm
Steve from Brooklyn says:
Enrique --

What would you name a report that studies how and why people are killed by automobiles? I find your agenda of denying that cars kill people largely because drivers fail to exercise proper care to be offensive. Is there any other machine that we, as a society can kill with so pervasively without holding anyone responsible?

I looked dozens of police reports. Please don't make statements like, "if you'd just stay out of the street and cross in the crosswalk when you are supposed to, you would't get hit or killed by a car," unless you have something to back that up with.
Aug. 6, 2010, 10:07 am
Howard from Prospect Park West says:
Dave, I do live on Prospect Park West. And yes, the cars have slowed down and yes, I do see bikers using the bike path. What bothers me the most is that a beautiful street does look like a parking lot . And I apologize if I am not active in the community, but it feels like to the average resident that the opinions of the residents of Prospect Park West were not taken into account. I keep up with the local news and developments by reading the local newspapers and I don't recall reading about this decision. (I am sure it was covered). However, one day I wake up and I see notices on the street lamps that a decision was made (I guess by the community board). Since it seems that my opinion doesn't matter, why should the opinions of the residents and storeowners matter. Why not make 5th, 6th & 7th Avenue one way (which I am in favor of). We should just let our mayor (and his cracker jack staff) make the decisions. Sorry, if it was a safety issue, then install speed bumps every other block. It seems that the mayor has an agenda, the residents who are affected be damned.
Aug. 6, 2010, 11:18 am
Dave from Park Slope says:
Howard,

Of course your opinion matters. But traffic-calming on PPW has been an issue for years. The Community Board (whose chairman lives on PPW) asked DOT to look at doing exactly what it has done more than three years ago.

I'm sorry if you feel blind-sided, and you don't need to apologize for not being more active in community affairs, but that should be motivation for getting more involved in neighborhood issues. You can contact CB6 and get on their mailing list, and you'll receive advance notification of their monthly agendas.

As for making the other avenues one way, that would just lead to more speeding and more traffic. Not sure how that would be an improvement.
Aug. 6, 2010, 12:44 pm
Howard from Prospect Park West says:
I guess this is debate is going on elsewhere in the borough.

It's a rough road for bike lane plans as residents from Bay Ridge to Canarsie denounce route

BY MIKE MCLAUGHLIN
DAILY NEWS WRITER

Wednesday, June 16th 2010, 4:00 AM

RELATED NEWS
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It's hell on wheels.

From Canarsie to Bay Ridge, residents have denounced recently released plans to build bike lanes on busy streets this fall.

Critics are fighting a Bay Ridge Parkway bicycle path and a winding route connecting Eastern Parkway to the Canarsie Pier they charge will not relieve congestion because drivers won't abandon their cars.

"Are we going to ride our bicycles to Manhattan every day? I don't think so," said Dyker Heights Civic Association president Fran Vella-Marrone. "I don't see that becoming a major mode of transportation."

Her group is against building the 6.3-mile Bay Ridge Parkway lane through her neighborhood from Bay Ridge to Bensonhurst.

In Canarsie, residents said the proposed 7.6-mile route to the pier was badly drawn because it funnels cyclists onto E. 95th St., a narrow and heavily traveled road.

"It's a horrible idea," said Latoya Hycinthe, 32, a beautician who lives on E. 95th St. "It would make the street even more busy."

Transportation Department officials said the bike lanes will improve safety on accident-prone Bay Ridge Parkway and Rockaway Parkway, on the Canarsie route. They predict motorists will drive slower after traffic lanes are narrowed to create space for the bike paths.

The lanes, scheduled for construction in October, are part of a Bloomberg administration push to expand the city's bicycle network by 50 miles a year until 2030.

Transportation Department spokesman Montgomery Dean said that these routes will penetrate "areas of South Brooklyn that have few facilities."

They want to encourage more people to pedal to work to reduce traffic and improve the environment.

The corridors will link with the recreational Shore Parkway Greenway that wraps around southern Brooklyn.

But Community Board 18 district manager Dorothy Turano said the street lanes will go to waste because neighborhoods like Canarsie are home to many seniors who haven't ridden a bike in years.

"It is safe to expect that this population is not going to jump on the bike-riding bandwagon," said Turano in a letter to Transportation Department officials.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2010/06/16/2010-06-16_rough_road_for_bikelane_plans_from_bay_ridge_to_canarsie.html#ixzz0vqWmpByW
Aug. 6, 2010, 1:03 pm
Mitch from Park Slope says:
Enrique,

I can't believe I'm actually taking the time to answer you. But you say the most outlandish things, it's too tempting not to reply.

Here's a quote from you that we definitely "comprehend". You couldn't have expressed your worldview more clearly:

"Yes Speed is a killer, but if you'd just stay out of the street and cross in the crosswalk when you are supposed to, you would't get hit or killed by a car. Speed would be irrelevant."

The following comment, however, continues to elude me:

"Chris, speed relates to the amount of control lost not the actual loss of control. For example, if my brakes have failed at a stop it does not make a difference, but at a high rate of speed it does."

I think what you're actually saying is that people doing 70 mph down PPW in the good old days have "lost lots of control" but aren't really "out of control" unless they kill someone? So, if they're just *likely* to hit someone, that's ok, as long as they don't? In other words, no one should get a summons for speeding, i.e. they should just get a summons and points for manslaughter or negligent homicide instead. Sounds like the NRA propaganda about guns and people and killing.

Basically, the more you say, the more I think cyclists need to be completely quarantined from cars to protect them from lunatics like you.

So, I we need some more bike lanes!

Signing off.
Aug. 6, 2010, 1:41 pm
Sam from Park Slope says:
"But traffic-calming on PPW has been an issue for years."

Then why don't the Crashstat figures support that? If it was so dangerous why did PPW have fewer accidents than any avenue in Park Slope? It's not like people were afraid to cross it. Prospect Park is filled with people and every one of them had to cross PPW to get there.

Aug. 6, 2010, 1:46 pm
Dave from Park Slope says:
Even on its busiest day, PPW sees only a fraction of the foot traffic that 5th or 7th Avenue does. Not to mention that there is a lot less foot traffic in colder months. Without being able to compare the universe of users, the crash data isn't as meaningful as it might be.

But what you seem to be saying is that it's ok that a third of the cars were going 40mph , even though a car that hits a pedestrian at that speed will kill 90% of the time. I for one would like to prevent that from happening.
Aug. 6, 2010, 1:56 pm
Sam from Park Slope says:
"Even on its busiest day, PPW sees only a fraction of the foot traffic that 5th or 7th Avenue does. Not to mention that there is a lot less foot traffic in colder months. Without being able to compare the universe of users, the crash data isn't as meaningful as it might be."

I agree with that but surely the number of people crossing PPW from April through October isn't trivial. The Crashstat numbers cover a 10 year period and they show an incidence of less that 3 accidents per year for a 19 block span. I do take your point that overall pedestrian volume is lower on PPW but I don't think those Crashstat numbers can be explained away just on that basis.

I would have had no problems if the city had chosen to slow traffic down by putting in additional traffic lights and synchronizing them to prevent cars from going faster than 30 MPH. Instead the narrowing of PPW has created traffic congestion and pollution where none existed.

Anyway, thanks for your well considered and civil response.
Aug. 6, 2010, 3:01 pm
Dave from Park Slope says:
Sam,

Likewise. DOT has tried adjusting light timings on PPW, and it wasn't enough to slow cars down in any meaningful fashion. Timed lights can control the speeds of cars that start from a red-to-green change, but the problem comes with cars coming late, trying to "beat" the lights that are turning yellow. Conversely, they could just time the lights in such a herky-jerky fashion that cars wouldn't be able to build up any momentum at all, but then you'll end up with angry drivers running lights, and an inefficient traffic system.

Honestly, I've seen very few backups on PPW; in my experience, and I'm there regularly, traffic seems to flow at a regular pace around the speed limit, managing to deal with the occasional double-parker. DOT will need to monitor the street and tweak it as necessary, but I think that in the long term, it'll all be fine.

I guess we can agree to disagree as to who'll be borne out as being correct.
Aug. 6, 2010, 9:33 pm
Jane from Park Slope says:
I truly have no problem sharing the roads with bikers since I've been known to occasionally ride one myself, although I mostly walk. However, despite the fact that I do far more walking than driving a car, I am totally against the new bike lane on PPW. Why build a dedicated bike lane only steps away from Prospect Park which already has a bike lane? By removing a lane for cars, this already congested street, which also has a bus route has been badly narrowed down causing increased traffic. That's not a recipe for quality of life or safety! Pedestrians now have to look both ways at crossings and plenty of bike riders don't stop for anyone; another potential hazard.

Also, what's going to happen when it snows? How will the plows get through? How will people remove their parked cars if they're boxed in on both sides as a result of the un-removed snow on one side and the plow build up on the other?

Don't mistake the lower membership of oppositional groups for approval for the bike lane. Just because bike riders have become more vocal doesn't mean that the rest of us think the bike lane is a good thing. Again, I'm all for alternative transportation,as long as it doesn't create problems for the rest of us who live here. This bike lane potentially does.
Aug. 8, 2010, 5:04 pm
Mike says:
So much misinformation in such a small space!

"Why build a dedicated bike lane only steps away from Prospect Park which already has a bike lane?"

Because the Park lane is not easily accessible from the neighborhood, and is one-way. And because of the serious need for traffic calming on Prospect Park West.

"Also, what's going to happen when it snows? How will the plows get through?"

They will drive through, just like anywhere else. There's plenty of room for a plow in the bike lane.
Aug. 8, 2010, 7:08 pm
matt from park slope says:
I live on PPW and think the bike line was a bad idea. That said, it's there and there is nothing I can do about it now.

Today I counted the number of cyclists who stopped for pedestrians at the light on 11th and PPW between 2 and 4 pm. There were 27 bike in a 2 hour span this afternoon. Of the 27, 0 stopped for the traffic light or for pedestrians. Of the 27, there were 2 small crashes with people crossing with the light, 8 near misses with pedestrians who were crossing with the light, and 3 near misses when they were not crossing with the light. Every time there were pedestrians, the cyclists broke the law. The big yellow signs say to yield to pedestrians (who may or may not be crossing with the light).

Bike lane or no bike lane, maybe if cyclists obeyed the law, there would be fewer negative comments on the bike lane and on cyclists in general.

Speed bumps would have been better.

Next time I am bringing a camera.
Aug. 8, 2010, 7:20 pm
Chicken Underwear from Park Slope says:
matt,

lets stop building roads because "almost every" driver is talking on their cellphone/texting.

and how many pedestrians did not walk into the bike lane because they had a red light.

This is New York, people do not obey laws they know are not going to be enforced.

Everybody needs to know that laws are gonna be enforced or there might as well be no laws.
Aug. 8, 2010, 11:18 pm
matt from park slope says:
Chicken Underwear -

I hope the next time you are screaming down the bike lane on your POS bike, you fail to yield to me. I'll enforce the law myself.
Aug. 9, 2010, 12:24 pm
charlie from kensington says:
Hmmm? Prospect Park already has bike lanes inside the park and the drive hours open to car traffic have been curtailed significantly in the recent past, so let's spend more of the taxpayers money building bike roads on PPW. Yeah I know, cyclists pay taxes too (I ride a bike often btw) Hasn't snowed yet has it? I wonder how PPW will handle a decent snowfall? Passability of PPW after a plowing should be fun. I wonder what effect this will have on emergency service response time? Perhaps EMS can respond by bike too? This installation was an absolute elitist voacl minority slamming it down our throats episode by City government. I do realize that it is always the folks driving cars that are at fault. We never witness any arrogant cyclists who purposely ride their bikes directly in front of cars whose drivers are obeying the speed limit and the laws of the road, do we? What was the price tag for this intrusion? Oh tell me, it was all paid for with magic "Stimulus Money" wasn't it? That's just like Monopoly money.
Aug. 10, 2010, 8:22 pm
charlie from kensington says:
What is "traffic calming" anyway? Is that like mind numbing? What are we turning into? How about crowd healing (for subways) or sidewalk leveling (on hills). If traffic needed calming the City could have produced revenue by issuing more tickets for moving violations and actually made money, instead of congesting the entire place and spending money. I highly suspect that there will be more accidents now then ever before. Some poor cyclist will get whacked by a car who doesn't see them exiting the bike lane from behind the parked cars and/or some pedestrian will eat it from a cyclist or a car for the same reason. The crossing of the bike lane will invariably cause more accidents...nope, I don't have the data. Sorry. Where I come from, bbefore the time of massive data collection, we called it common sense. I know...that's not PC. Don't worry, I don't have a too many years left...I have to negotiate PPW several times per day.
Aug. 10, 2010, 8:32 pm
Howdy from Prospect Heights says:
Hey! I live on Plaza Street East, and yesterday I heard from a neighbor that the city is planning to create a similar bike lane on our street. Whoa! I'm a bike rider myself, and I believe in safety first, but perhaps this is becoming too much of a good thing?

At least PPW still has two lanes of traffic flowing; PSE currently has about 1 and a half because there's already a bike lane in place. But I guess the current bike lane isn't good enough. We need one that runs INSIDE the parking lane, along the curb, just like our big brother, PPW.

Wait. This means that once the NEW bike lane goes in, there will only be one lane of traffic on PSE. That's great. So, if there's only one lane of traffic, and someone double-parks to load or off-load, and if I have a heart attack at home and the street is blocked by all the parked cars, I'll die right there in the ambulance. At least I won't make my final exit in a cold, sterile hospital environment, surrounded by tubes and wires. I'll be on the road! Yee-haw!
Aug. 11, 2010, 7:36 am
Steve from Brooklyn says:
Wow -- Enrique, here's a new report by the NYC DOT which seems to closely mirror the results of the "Killed by Automobile" study.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/about/pedsafetyreport.shtml

Take a look at the "Technical Supplement" PDF
which shows (table 1-4) the "top apparent contributing factors"
in all ped crashes (not just fatals).

Driver Inattention 36.0%
Ped Error/Confusion 21.5%
[Driver] Failure to yield ROW 20.6%
Unsafe speed 8.3%

(everything else < 7% each)
Aug. 16, 2010, 2:12 pm
ed from sunset park says:
I'd like to point out that Marty Markowitz himself is not impartial. The guy drives a car (not like all of you working class people who have to walk, bike, or take public transportation) around NYC to get to his 1.4 million dollar home in Windsor. The guy has a lot of audacity to say that Park Slope Neighbors is "not impartial" when he himself has a vested interest in keeping PPW an "autobahn" so he can get back to his nice pad faster. The DOT and Transportation Alternatives have all found that speeding was the norm before the bike lane. Not that Marty cares about pedestrian and cyclist safety, but it is now in fact a lot safer for the vast majority of tax payers who walk and bike around NYC out of necessity and to reduce noise and air pollution.
Aug. 17, 2010, 12:25 am
ed from sunset park says:
and another thing...don't blame bike lanes for double parkers, that's already a traffic violation and should be enforced by NYPD. Marty is an embarrassment to Brooklyn.
Aug. 17, 2010, 12:28 am
chrisc from ps says:
>>"The rhetoric about the bike lane has certainly been heated, but it is unclear which group is in the majority. "

Here's a clue. Do you know how many people commute by bicycle in NY City?

20%? 10%? 5%?

Nope.

A little more than *half* of *one* percent according to the US Census Bureau. Concentrating a small minority on Facebook makes it look a lot bigger than it actually is.
Sept. 1, 2010, 12:32 am
bob from bensonhurst says:
yes but a much greater percentage of NYers use bikes recreationally, not just for commuting ya noob. I'd also like to point out that less than *half* of *one* percent of NYC streets have protected bike lanes so if anything, bike lanes are disproportionately represented in NYC.
Sept. 9, 2010, 6:38 pm
Tim from Hyde says:
I live in Park Slope and I drive on Prospect Park West. I use to drive really fast down that street before the change, because everyone around me was speeding down the street to keep up with the lights. After the redesign I have noticed that it is slower moving down the street, and some added stress when a parallel parker reduces the lanes to one lane. But it just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. PPW is a neighborhood street, and before the redesign it always felt like a freeway, which always seemed a bit dangerous. I guess for me it doesn't take much to focus on the big picture and sacrifice minute or two to have all of us: drivers, cyclists, and pedestrians be a little safer. I don't understand why some drivers are so angry about it.
Oct. 22, 2010, 2:44 pm

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